5 ms·

This is the sort of bigoted non-sense that people once said -- and sometimes still do say -- about gay folks. Luckily, society is continuing to progress sociall

by mrrrgn 11y ago

This is the sort of bigoted non-sense that people once said -- and sometimes still do say -- about gay folks. Luckily, society is continuing to progress socially. I imagine in another few decades (if you're still alive) your views will be seen as a novelty; a sad reminder of a bygone era -- like Archie Bunker's overt racism.

slowmovintarget 11y ago
You are wrong. He's talking science, measured outcomes, greatly increased risk of suicide with reassignment surgery, and evidence. That this doesn't fit your politics doesn't make it bigoted.
- mrrrgn 11y ago
  The fact is, transgender people have extremely high rates of suicide before and after any surgeries. Life on the margins of society is not easy, and surgery does nothing to address that problem. Here is a study, using the data from above, which explicitly mentions this: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885#pone-0016885-g001 http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.... "It is therefore important to note that the current study is only informative with respect to transsexuals persons health after sex reassignment; no inferences can be drawn as to the effectiveness of sex reassignment as a treatment for transsexualism. In other words, the results should not be interpreted such as sex reassignment per se increases morbidity and mortality." Further, numerous studies exist which disagree with the claims posted above: http://dare.ubvu.vu.nl/bitstream/handle/1871/23255/189321.pdf http://dare.ubvu.vu.nl/bitstream/handle/1871/23255/189321.pd... "The results substantiate previous conclusions that sex reassignment is effective." http://www.jaacap.com/article/S0890-8567%2809%2962807-0/abstract?cc=y http://www.jaacap.com/article/S0890-8567%2809%2962807-0/abst... http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1743-6109.2008.00799.x/abstract;jsessionid=34E20C8EDA68B9C68D9D58CE8C222804.f01t02?deniedAccessCustomisedMessage=&userIsAuthenticated=false http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1743-6109.2008.... What is known, is that "conversion therapies" are not useful. It's not possible to modify a person's sense of self, just like it's not possible to modify a person's sexual orientation. Lastly, let's remember that slapping the word "science" on something does not make it correct. Everyone has a political agenda of some sort, and plenty of science has been used to justify homophobia and racism.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - collyw 11y ago
    There are a lot of transgender prostitutes outside my workplace. I am not sure if that the only work they can find or if it pays well. It doesn't look like a wonderful life, hanging around a car park after working hours. (Though at least one of them has a very flash car).
    - goldfeld 11y ago
      Maybe having someone pay for their sex is the way they have found for external validation for their sex change? Surely surgery and reassignment can still become much better technically, but the real problem is cultural, with society having so much prejudice that they marginilize transsexuals as like abominations, and it's thanks to religious bigots like this man (in society at large). Psychiatry will make good progress in certain areas, like in dealing with drugs, when people like him move out of the scene and newer generations take over.
      - polil0 11y ago
        >Maybe having someone pay for their sex is the way they have found for external validation for their sex change? So, this is incredibly insulting. Try getting a decent job while trans. It doesn't happen. Trans people suffer from incredible rates of homelessness and poverty. The one niche that's allowed is sex work. You can bet your ass it's not some kind of weird sexual validation thing for most trans folk, it's just survival: http://www.lgbtmap.org/news/understanding-transgender-issues-unfair-price-release http://www.lgbtmap.org/news/understanding-transgender-issues...
collyw 11y ago
Depends how you define male and female. Is it based on genetics, physical characteristics or how the person "feels".

by mrrrgn 11y ago

slowmovintarget 11y ago

You are wrong. He's talking science, measured outcomes, greatly increased risk of suicide with reassignment surgery, and evidence. That this doesn't fit your politics doesn't make it bigoted.

mrrrgn 11y ago
The fact is, transgender people have extremely high rates of suicide before and after any surgeries. Life on the margins of society is not easy, and surgery does nothing to address that problem. Here is a study, using the data from above, which explicitly mentions this: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885#pone-0016885-g001 http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.... "It is therefore important to note that the current study is only informative with respect to transsexuals persons health after sex reassignment; no inferences can be drawn as to the effectiveness of sex reassignment as a treatment for transsexualism. In other words, the results should not be interpreted such as sex reassignment per se increases morbidity and mortality." Further, numerous studies exist which disagree with the claims posted above: http://dare.ubvu.vu.nl/bitstream/handle/1871/23255/189321.pdf http://dare.ubvu.vu.nl/bitstream/handle/1871/23255/189321.pd... "The results substantiate previous conclusions that sex reassignment is effective." http://www.jaacap.com/article/S0890-8567%2809%2962807-0/abstract?cc=y http://www.jaacap.com/article/S0890-8567%2809%2962807-0/abst... http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1743-6109.2008.00799.x/abstract;jsessionid=34E20C8EDA68B9C68D9D58CE8C222804.f01t02?deniedAccessCustomisedMessage=&userIsAuthenticated=false http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1743-6109.2008.... What is known, is that "conversion therapies" are not useful. It's not possible to modify a person's sense of self, just like it's not possible to modify a person's sexual orientation. Lastly, let's remember that slapping the word "science" on something does not make it correct. Everyone has a political agenda of some sort, and plenty of science has been used to justify homophobia and racism.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- collyw 11y ago
  There are a lot of transgender prostitutes outside my workplace. I am not sure if that the only work they can find or if it pays well. It doesn't look like a wonderful life, hanging around a car park after working hours. (Though at least one of them has a very flash car).
  - goldfeld 11y ago
    Maybe having someone pay for their sex is the way they have found for external validation for their sex change? Surely surgery and reassignment can still become much better technically, but the real problem is cultural, with society having so much prejudice that they marginilize transsexuals as like abominations, and it's thanks to religious bigots like this man (in society at large). Psychiatry will make good progress in certain areas, like in dealing with drugs, when people like him move out of the scene and newer generations take over.
    - polil0 11y ago
      >Maybe having someone pay for their sex is the way they have found for external validation for their sex change? So, this is incredibly insulting. Try getting a decent job while trans. It doesn't happen. Trans people suffer from incredible rates of homelessness and poverty. The one niche that's allowed is sex work. You can bet your ass it's not some kind of weird sexual validation thing for most trans folk, it's just survival: http://www.lgbtmap.org/news/understanding-transgender-issues-unfair-price-release http://www.lgbtmap.org/news/understanding-transgender-issues...

collyw 11y ago

Depends how you define male and female. Is it based on genetics, physical characteristics or how the person "feels".