5 ms·

> Not worthy to be left over to whiners that offer no solutions. This is not a fair criticism. I can tell someone, "Hey dude, your house is on fire" without h

> Not worthy to be left over to whiners that offer no solutions. This is not a fair criticism. I can tell someone, "Hey dude, your house is on fire" without having to offer them either a bucket of water or a new house. This type of argument is frequently used to forestall any criticism whatsoever. Bad supervisors often say things like, "don't give me complaints without also giving me a solution." It's sloppy thinking, and rejects valuable feedback.

rockdoe 11y ago
I couldn't disagree more strongly. There IS a solution. There are even multiple ones. The critics are pointing out that a particular one they focus one isn't perfect on their arbitrary metrics, and so they claim it isn't good. "I dislike it that the user-friendly software I use (as opposed to TBB) phones home to check for updates and track metrics" isn't valuable feedback. It's stating the obvious without proper qualification. It's ignoring the trade-offs that are obvious. It's not constructive. You're the person complaining to the fire brigade because they made your house wet. Really, your post is the kind of thing that must sit framed in every Internet Troll cave. Because that sure is everybodies favorite internet hobby: complain loudly about everything, offer no solutions, and then whine even harder when the authors that are working to make things better (sometimes for free) quit in disgust. And the entitlement in the replies, you cannot be serious. Yes, you're all entitled to whine, I'm sorry, point out flaws, all day on the internet. Congrats.
- wernercd 11y ago
  He isn't saying their isn't a solution... he's saying that you don't have to offer a problem AND a solution at the same time. He's right: There shouldn't be an "All or Nothing" mentality. There are times and places where a problem shouldn't be mentioned without a solution... There are also times and places where bring up a problem is itself important enough to warrant a talk WITHOUT a solution. Ignoring the fact that both extremes exist is a larger part of problem in having any kind of constructive conversation these days. "If you don't agree with me 100%, you're an idiot, a troll and your mom should be shot" type of attitude is a troll in of itself and a major problem blocking any kind of conversation on a multitude of topics. Why can't the problem be discussed without forcing the conversation down the "this is the solution..." path?
  - alphapapa 11y ago
    I wish we could form a parallel Internet only accessible by reasonable people like you. :)
- blumkvist 11y ago
  You missed the point entirely. Just because I can't think of, or simply I am not providing a solution does not mean I cannot point out a problem. Really, your post is the kind of thing that must sit framed on every wishful-thinking, fallacy-screaming neckbeard wall.
danudey 11y ago
> Bad supervisors often say things like, "don't give me complaints without also giving me a solution." This is true, but bad employees often say "Hey this sucks" without providing any constructive reasoning, and expecting someone else to fix a problem that you've seen but they haven't usually results in a lousy fix. Sure, it's not their job to fix it, but if you come to me and say 'our art pipeline sucks, it's too inefficient' and then walk away, I literally have nothing at all to work on.
- rando3826 11y ago
  > if you come to me and say 'our art pipeline sucks, it's too inefficient' and then walk away, I literally have nothing at all to work on. The 'art pipeline' might be something you could work on...
- alphapapa 11y ago
  Wouldn't a good supervisor then investigate the art pipeline?
dragonwriter 11y ago
> Bad supervisors often say things like, "don't give me complaints without also giving me a solution." That might be a bad supervisor if they say it to unskilled labor; to professional/analytical staff, the expectation that a problem report to management include a recommended course of action to address the problem is not unreasonable. In fact, since those are the kind of staff that would be called on to propose action to resolve a problem even if someone else reported it, its simply a case of issuing the follow-up assignment in advance to eliminate an inefficient delay step.
- eru 11y ago
  Or at least, come up with an analysis why all the solutions you can come up with don't work.
- alphapapa 11y ago
  What's wrong with telling one's boss, "Hey, I think we have a problem here that you should be aware of"? It sounds like these PHBs are drilling their PHs into the sand...
r00fus 11y ago
In some circumstances that attitude is valuable. When it comes to oversubscribed workers noticing something that doesn't seem right, it could save the company a lot in long run. Sometimes you don't have the time to find solutions, because you're working on your own stuff.

rockdoe 11y ago

I couldn't disagree more strongly. There IS a solution. There are even multiple ones. The critics are pointing out that a particular one they focus one isn't perfect on their arbitrary metrics, and so they claim it isn't good. "I dislike it that the user-friendly software I use (as opposed to TBB) phones home to check for updates and track metrics" isn't valuable feedback. It's stating the obvious without proper qualification. It's ignoring the trade-offs that are obvious. It's not constructive. You're the person complaining to the fire brigade because they made your house wet. Really, your post is the kind of thing that must sit framed in every Internet Troll cave. Because that sure is everybodies favorite internet hobby: complain loudly about everything, offer no solutions, and then whine even harder when the authors that are working to make things better (sometimes for free) quit in disgust. And the entitlement in the replies, you cannot be serious. Yes, you're all entitled to whine, I'm sorry, point out flaws, all day on the internet. Congrats.

wernercd 11y ago
He isn't saying their isn't a solution... he's saying that you don't have to offer a problem AND a solution at the same time. He's right: There shouldn't be an "All or Nothing" mentality. There are times and places where a problem shouldn't be mentioned without a solution... There are also times and places where bring up a problem is itself important enough to warrant a talk WITHOUT a solution. Ignoring the fact that both extremes exist is a larger part of problem in having any kind of constructive conversation these days. "If you don't agree with me 100%, you're an idiot, a troll and your mom should be shot" type of attitude is a troll in of itself and a major problem blocking any kind of conversation on a multitude of topics. Why can't the problem be discussed without forcing the conversation down the "this is the solution..." path?
- alphapapa 11y ago
  I wish we could form a parallel Internet only accessible by reasonable people like you. :)
blumkvist 11y ago
You missed the point entirely. Just because I can't think of, or simply I am not providing a solution does not mean I cannot point out a problem. Really, your post is the kind of thing that must sit framed on every wishful-thinking, fallacy-screaming neckbeard wall.

danudey 11y ago

> Bad supervisors often say things like, "don't give me complaints without also giving me a solution." This is true, but bad employees often say "Hey this sucks" without providing any constructive reasoning, and expecting someone else to fix a problem that you've seen but they haven't usually results in a lousy fix. Sure, it's not their job to fix it, but if you come to me and say 'our art pipeline sucks, it's too inefficient' and then walk away, I literally have nothing at all to work on.

rando3826 11y ago
> if you come to me and say 'our art pipeline sucks, it's too inefficient' and then walk away, I literally have nothing at all to work on. The 'art pipeline' might be something you could work on...
alphapapa 11y ago
Wouldn't a good supervisor then investigate the art pipeline?

dragonwriter 11y ago

> Bad supervisors often say things like, "don't give me complaints without also giving me a solution." That might be a bad supervisor if they say it to unskilled labor; to professional/analytical staff, the expectation that a problem report to management include a recommended course of action to address the problem is not unreasonable. In fact, since those are the kind of staff that would be called on to propose action to resolve a problem even if someone else reported it, its simply a case of issuing the follow-up assignment in advance to eliminate an inefficient delay step.

eru 11y ago
Or at least, come up with an analysis why all the solutions you can come up with don't work.
alphapapa 11y ago
What's wrong with telling one's boss, "Hey, I think we have a problem here that you should be aware of"? It sounds like these PHBs are drilling their PHs into the sand...

r00fus 11y ago

In some circumstances that attitude is valuable. When it comes to oversubscribed workers noticing something that doesn't seem right, it could save the company a lot in long run. Sometimes you don't have the time to find solutions, because you're working on your own stuff.