4 ms·

I don't think that applies at the college/university level. Evaluations are at the end of the course and you will know if you have learned a lot. The problem

by Siecje 12y ago

I don't think that applies at the college/university level. Evaluations are at the end of the course and you will know if you have learned a lot. The problem is profs just reading the textbook or parts of the textbook in a powerpoint, without challenging students.

bvrlt 12y ago
Even at the college/university level I have seen students complaining about professors that were fairly good, sometimes just because the grading was a bit tough.
- Siecje 12y ago
  Would that be a majority though?
- tr352 12y ago
  Well those might be legitimate complaints. Professor is fine but his grading is too tough.
  - emodendroket 12y ago
    "Too tough" means "I didn't get the grade I wanted." Grade inflation is a real problem.
    - rpcope1 12y ago
      Agreed. When I was teaching before I started out as a developer, it was unheard of to fail anyone in an entry level Physics class (granted this was an Ivy League school); over many semesters I recall thinking that we had passed several students that had no business advancing "because medschool needs high GPAs" or because we didn't want to ruin some kid's future in engineering (when they may not have been successful anyways). But yeah many (most?) of the kids care about a high grade before learning anything, and expect nothing less than an A, even if they don't deserve it.
- pliny 12y ago
  emodendroket: 'Too tough', as I've heard it, almost always means 'failing average' or 'failing median', but we can only trade anecdotes around that.
  - emodendroket 12y ago
    But grade inflation is a real and documented phenomenon that would seem to be related.
sklogic 12y ago
By the end of the course they'd only know they've got an exam to pass and they'll hate it. Students should not have any say in anything related to their courses, professors, marking, workload and such.
- Siecje 12y ago
  No say at all? Not even trigger a review? Profs that consistently get poor reviews are getting them for a reason.
  - ColinWright 12y ago
    Possibly that reason is that the students are being made to work hard to get their grades, and not simply being given good grades for no work.
  - sklogic 12y ago
    Back in my days in the university we (all the students) hated mostly the toughest professors. Now, many years later, the only stuff that I still remember well, to a degree that I can go and pass an exam, despite not using much of it in my work, is from the courses of those most hated professors. And now students are much worse, they're expecting a "value for money", they want to be entertained. They do not like being pushed hard. Just look at all those disgusting stories: http://sheffield.tab.co.uk/2015/01/29/devastated-economists-start-petition-outrageous-exam/ http://sheffield.tab.co.uk/2015/01/29/devastated-economists-... (what kind of cretins can find such an exam "too complicated"?) http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-31814659 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-31814659 (another bunch of morons enjoying a right to have their say) This crap must be stopped. Once and for all.
    - jimmaswell 12y ago
      Are you saying all those students just weren't paying attention in class or something? It seems suspect if that many of them spoke out about it
      - 12y ago
dagw 12y ago
Based on my experience at University great teachers who push and challenge students are generally disliked by the large group of students that don't particularly want to be pushed or challenged.
- ohfunkyeah 12y ago
  But why wouldn't they want to be pushed and challenged? The only thing universities offer is the chance to learn more and be pushed or challenged. AFAIK they could not possibly be there for any other reason than to learn deeply. I think it would be interesting to know if professors who push and challenge within a non-dgree open online course would face the similar wrath? I'd bet not.
  - chrisbennet 12y ago
    "The only thing universities offer is the chance to learn more and be pushed or challenged." Um, have you been to a university? ;-) When you think about it, the professors aren't (necessarily) there to teach either. They are there primarily for the opportunity to do research though that may be changing as many professors are part time minimum wage contractors.
    - ohfunkyeah 12y ago
      Yeah, exactly my point. That statement is laughable to anyone who as been to a University. I'm not even sure if being pushed and/or challenged to become better educated is even a primary focus of Universities.
dubya 12y ago
The quote is about a pair of university courses. Students, and probably just people in general, are really bad at knowing what they have learned.
ColinWright 12y ago
I see a common theme in this and your other comment[0]. In my experience, however, evaluations from students have next-to-nothing to do with how much the students have or have not learned, and that is the point of the linked study[1]. Quoting: > Controlled, randomized experiments find that > SET ratings are negatively associated with > direct measures of effectiveness. SET seem > to be influenced by the gender, ethnicity, > and attractiveness of the instructor. The other link[2] says: > We find that teacher quality matters substantially > and that our measure of effectiveness is negatively > correlated with the students’ evaluations of professors. Both these formal studies are at odds with what you seem to be saying. ======== [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9445924 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9445924 [1] http://www.stat.berkeley.edu/~stark/Preprints/evaluations14.pdf http://www.stat.berkeley.edu/~stark/Preprints/evaluations14.... [2] http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0272775714000417 http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0272775714...
tjl 12y ago
I've only known a few profs who just read the text or parts of the text in powerpoint. Of the profs I was a TA for, only one used powerpoint and he made his own slides separate from the text. It definitely applies. One of the best profs in my department often got poor evaluations in some of the first year courses she taught (which were required for everyone). But, she consistently gets excellent ratings for her 3rd year, 4th year, and grad courses (which were targeted for her specialty). She's known for being tough, but students can learn a lot in her courses and they actually do well. First years seem to think that they can get away with more because she's a short woman. She's had students try and suggest how to change her exams after midterms because they've taught swimming lessons. She once had a comment on RateMyProfessor.ca, "I'd say she worships Satan, but I think Satan worships her." It was eventually dropped after several years, but she wrote it in calligraphy and put it up in her office. We all thought that was very funny.

by Siecje 12y ago

bvrlt 12y ago

Even at the college/university level I have seen students complaining about professors that were fairly good, sometimes just because the grading was a bit tough.

Siecje 12y ago
Would that be a majority though?
tr352 12y ago
Well those might be legitimate complaints. Professor is fine but his grading is too tough.
- emodendroket 12y ago
  "Too tough" means "I didn't get the grade I wanted." Grade inflation is a real problem.
  - rpcope1 12y ago
    Agreed. When I was teaching before I started out as a developer, it was unheard of to fail anyone in an entry level Physics class (granted this was an Ivy League school); over many semesters I recall thinking that we had passed several students that had no business advancing "because medschool needs high GPAs" or because we didn't want to ruin some kid's future in engineering (when they may not have been successful anyways). But yeah many (most?) of the kids care about a high grade before learning anything, and expect nothing less than an A, even if they don't deserve it.
pliny 12y ago
emodendroket: 'Too tough', as I've heard it, almost always means 'failing average' or 'failing median', but we can only trade anecdotes around that.
- emodendroket 12y ago
  But grade inflation is a real and documented phenomenon that would seem to be related.

sklogic 12y ago

By the end of the course they'd only know they've got an exam to pass and they'll hate it. Students should not have any say in anything related to their courses, professors, marking, workload and such.

Siecje 12y ago
No say at all? Not even trigger a review? Profs that consistently get poor reviews are getting them for a reason.
- ColinWright 12y ago
  Possibly that reason is that the students are being made to work hard to get their grades, and not simply being given good grades for no work.
- sklogic 12y ago
  Back in my days in the university we (all the students) hated mostly the toughest professors. Now, many years later, the only stuff that I still remember well, to a degree that I can go and pass an exam, despite not using much of it in my work, is from the courses of those most hated professors. And now students are much worse, they're expecting a "value for money", they want to be entertained. They do not like being pushed hard. Just look at all those disgusting stories: http://sheffield.tab.co.uk/2015/01/29/devastated-economists-start-petition-outrageous-exam/ http://sheffield.tab.co.uk/2015/01/29/devastated-economists-... (what kind of cretins can find such an exam "too complicated"?) http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-31814659 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-31814659 (another bunch of morons enjoying a right to have their say) This crap must be stopped. Once and for all.
  - jimmaswell 12y ago
    Are you saying all those students just weren't paying attention in class or something? It seems suspect if that many of them spoke out about it
    - 12y ago

dagw 12y ago

Based on my experience at University great teachers who push and challenge students are generally disliked by the large group of students that don't particularly want to be pushed or challenged.

ohfunkyeah 12y ago
But why wouldn't they want to be pushed and challenged? The only thing universities offer is the chance to learn more and be pushed or challenged. AFAIK they could not possibly be there for any other reason than to learn deeply. I think it would be interesting to know if professors who push and challenge within a non-dgree open online course would face the similar wrath? I'd bet not.
- chrisbennet 12y ago
  "The only thing universities offer is the chance to learn more and be pushed or challenged." Um, have you been to a university? ;-) When you think about it, the professors aren't (necessarily) there to teach either. They are there primarily for the opportunity to do research though that may be changing as many professors are part time minimum wage contractors.
  - ohfunkyeah 12y ago
    Yeah, exactly my point. That statement is laughable to anyone who as been to a University. I'm not even sure if being pushed and/or challenged to become better educated is even a primary focus of Universities.

dubya 12y ago

The quote is about a pair of university courses. Students, and probably just people in general, are really bad at knowing what they have learned.

ColinWright 12y ago

I see a common theme in this and your other comment[0]. In my experience, however, evaluations from students have next-to-nothing to do with how much the students have or have not learned, and that is the point of the linked study[1]. Quoting: > Controlled, randomized experiments find that > SET ratings are negatively associated with > direct measures of effectiveness. SET seem > to be influenced by the gender, ethnicity, > and attractiveness of the instructor. The other link[2] says: > We find that teacher quality matters substantially > and that our measure of effectiveness is negatively > correlated with the students’ evaluations of professors. Both these formal studies are at odds with what you seem to be saying. ======== [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9445924 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9445924 [1] http://www.stat.berkeley.edu/~stark/Preprints/evaluations14.pdf http://www.stat.berkeley.edu/~stark/Preprints/evaluations14.... [2] http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0272775714000417 http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0272775714...

tjl 12y ago

I've only known a few profs who just read the text or parts of the text in powerpoint. Of the profs I was a TA for, only one used powerpoint and he made his own slides separate from the text. It definitely applies. One of the best profs in my department often got poor evaluations in some of the first year courses she taught (which were required for everyone). But, she consistently gets excellent ratings for her 3rd year, 4th year, and grad courses (which were targeted for her specialty). She's known for being tough, but students can learn a lot in her courses and they actually do well. First years seem to think that they can get away with more because she's a short woman. She's had students try and suggest how to change her exams after midterms because they've taught swimming lessons. She once had a comment on RateMyProfessor.ca, "I'd say she worships Satan, but I think Satan worships her." It was eventually dropped after several years, but she wrote it in calligraphy and put it up in her office. We all thought that was very funny.