9 ms·

Soviet Union tried to create a new citizen. You won't easily find creature more miserable than their result. Alcohol consumption spiked and life expectancy act

Soviet Union tried to create a new citizen. You won't easily find creature more miserable than their result. Alcohol consumption spiked and life expectancy actually plummeted.

tedks 12y ago
The Soviet Union was run by increasingly aging and increasingly paranoid revolutionaries (literally, people who had fought a coup) who were generally unconcerned with science. The PRC is run by technocrats educated in the West. It's very nice to think that it's impossible to "create a new citizen," but the West has been doing that pretty effectively over the last few decades. I don't doubt the Chinese will be successful. There is no inherent good in the universe. There is no particle or fundamental force for morality. There are truly no constraints. It is nice to believe that good will win and evil will fail, but that doesn't always happen. There's no law of the universe preventing the PRC from creating a new citizen, a perpetually controllable citizen, held in check by pervasive surveillance of a very similar form to the one experienced in the West, only with the results visible, and leveraged against the people openly, rather than covertly and without opportunity to improve your score (try getting off the no-fly list). There is no law of the universe that totalitarianism loses and democracy wins. Maybe the PRC will be successful and create a permanently stable capitalist totalitarian state. I wonder who's writing their software?
- guard-of-terra 12y ago
  "who were generally unconcerned with science" That one is far from truth. Soviet society was hugely concerned with science. They didn't lack in science in their ways; it just turned out that scientifically-sound methods often conflict with social reality and what people like. For example: while it is sound to build your cities as arrays of concrete blocks with wide roads served by public transportations, living in such environment is no picnic. When you relocate someone who used to have their garden, their garage with tools, etc - into a flat in concrete block, they usually begin to drink for the lack of activities they are used to.
  - tedks 12y ago
    What do you mean by "sound"? Obviously it can't mean "effective" because as you point out these plans weren't the case.
    - guard-of-terra 12y ago
      I mean that as far as science is concerned (disregarding humanitarian sciences because they were viewed not scientific enough) this sounds like a good, efficient plan and downside takes some time to notice when you have already invested much.
- guard-of-terra 12y ago
  "There's no law of the universe preventing the PRC from creating a new citizen, a perpetually controllable citizen, held in check by pervasive surveillance" Control is a contract. Citizen gives you his behavior, you give him predictable prosperous life. Once you breach this contract, your system begins to leak. Do Chinese expect eternal economy growth now? Because when it stops, millions of people will seek to change their lives to make a living. That's what happened in NK where tight surveillance did not prevent hundreds of thoudsands from unregulated activites such as crossing the border, selling things on market and producing stuff outside of state factories.
warkid 12y ago
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Russia#/media/File:Russian_male_and_female_life_expectancy.PNG http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Russia#/media/Fil... This is life expectancy in Soviet Union - peaked at around 74 years(for females) before the Perestroyka was initiated. And started to 'plummet' only when SU was no more.
- guard-of-terra 12y ago
  "peaked at around 74 years(for females)" Why females? If you actually take time to look at the chart, you will see that life expectancy plummeted between 1965 and 1985, losing full three years male life expectancy and gaining zero for women. And it "peaked" under the rule of Gorbachev who scrapped that "new citizen" nonsense in favour of damage control, which did not help him in the long run anyway. It did not peak before Gorbachev was in power.
mlvljr 12y ago
Creature in question here. Having my tea, frowning.

Soviet Union tried to create a new citizen. You won't easily find creature more miserable than their result. Alcohol consumption spiked and life expectancy actually plummeted.

tedks 12y ago

The Soviet Union was run by increasingly aging and increasingly paranoid revolutionaries (literally, people who had fought a coup) who were generally unconcerned with science. The PRC is run by technocrats educated in the West. It's very nice to think that it's impossible to "create a new citizen," but the West has been doing that pretty effectively over the last few decades. I don't doubt the Chinese will be successful. There is no inherent good in the universe. There is no particle or fundamental force for morality. There are truly no constraints. It is nice to believe that good will win and evil will fail, but that doesn't always happen. There's no law of the universe preventing the PRC from creating a new citizen, a perpetually controllable citizen, held in check by pervasive surveillance of a very similar form to the one experienced in the West, only with the results visible, and leveraged against the people openly, rather than covertly and without opportunity to improve your score (try getting off the no-fly list). There is no law of the universe that totalitarianism loses and democracy wins. Maybe the PRC will be successful and create a permanently stable capitalist totalitarian state. I wonder who's writing their software?

guard-of-terra 12y ago
"who were generally unconcerned with science" That one is far from truth. Soviet society was hugely concerned with science. They didn't lack in science in their ways; it just turned out that scientifically-sound methods often conflict with social reality and what people like. For example: while it is sound to build your cities as arrays of concrete blocks with wide roads served by public transportations, living in such environment is no picnic. When you relocate someone who used to have their garden, their garage with tools, etc - into a flat in concrete block, they usually begin to drink for the lack of activities they are used to.
- tedks 12y ago
  What do you mean by "sound"? Obviously it can't mean "effective" because as you point out these plans weren't the case.
  - guard-of-terra 12y ago
    I mean that as far as science is concerned (disregarding humanitarian sciences because they were viewed not scientific enough) this sounds like a good, efficient plan and downside takes some time to notice when you have already invested much.
guard-of-terra 12y ago
"There's no law of the universe preventing the PRC from creating a new citizen, a perpetually controllable citizen, held in check by pervasive surveillance" Control is a contract. Citizen gives you his behavior, you give him predictable prosperous life. Once you breach this contract, your system begins to leak. Do Chinese expect eternal economy growth now? Because when it stops, millions of people will seek to change their lives to make a living. That's what happened in NK where tight surveillance did not prevent hundreds of thoudsands from unregulated activites such as crossing the border, selling things on market and producing stuff outside of state factories.

warkid 12y ago

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Russia#/media/File:Russian_male_and_female_life_expectancy.PNG http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Russia#/media/Fil... This is life expectancy in Soviet Union - peaked at around 74 years(for females) before the Perestroyka was initiated. And started to 'plummet' only when SU was no more.

guard-of-terra 12y ago
"peaked at around 74 years(for females)" Why females? If you actually take time to look at the chart, you will see that life expectancy plummeted between 1965 and 1985, losing full three years male life expectancy and gaining zero for women. And it "peaked" under the rule of Gorbachev who scrapped that "new citizen" nonsense in favour of damage control, which did not help him in the long run anyway. It did not peak before Gorbachev was in power.

mlvljr 12y ago

Creature in question here. Having my tea, frowning.