6 ms·

Because "guys" is gender discrimination? Give me a break. Might as well call ~everyone who speaks the Spanish language massive sexists while you're at it. I gu

by Dewie2 11y ago

Because "guys" is gender discrimination? Give me a break. Might as well call ~everyone who speaks the Spanish language massive sexists while you're at it. I guess it is if you're oversensitive to everything that might be construed as sexist, through any historical, cultural etc. link. Like some people are oversensitive about bodily functions. Besides, some groups of people might be put off by such crass analogies. You don't want to exclude those people, do you Ygg2?

Manishearth 11y ago
Yeah, no, the default male plural pronoun in other languages is a language feature. One doesn't feel like they're being called male when it's used. On the other hand "guys" sounds like you're being called, well, a guy (and English has singular they and many other constructs that can be used in its place). Usage of "guys" makes many women feel they don't belong. It perpetuates ideas about programming being a boys club that shouldn't exist. Poop jokes might make some people uncomfortable, but they're not as harmful as "guys". Plus, if you read kibwen's comment below that, it's not something that's considered a serious offence, but you will be asked to stop. The same would probably go for excessive poop jokes in IRC or whatever. (Also, it's an unofficial blog post. Not the same standards. There wouldn't be poop jokes on an official blog post, and there wouldn't be much of a ruckus if someone used "guys" in an unofficial one)
- Dewie2 11y ago
  I guess the Rust community isn't so carefree and non-sensitive after all. > On the other hand "guys" sounds like you're being called, well, a guy "Guys" means that you're in a mixed gender company. > (and English has singular they and many other constructs that can be used in its place). And that's great. But it can lead to writing that feels unnatural - because "they" means something else in other contexts, and it is unusual - so it isn't like it's a clear, objective win over the more usual form. > Usage of "guys" makes many women feel they don't belong. It perpetuates ideas about programming being a boys club that shouldn't exist. I guess they don't feel like they belong in any part of mixed gender society then, since it is so widespread. Or are programmers really that more inclined to say "guys"? I guess I can see the argument for the fact that the programming group might be heavily male-skewed. > Poop jokes might make some people uncomfortable, but they're not as harmful as "guys". Which you're just going to arbitrarily decide? What do you propose to back that claim up with? Imagine a mixed gender group of people. They are having a normal conversation. All of a sudden, someone drops a sexual joke, or a toilet joke. I can imagine that some people might feel a bit put off, or like they don't belong. Now alternatively, someone says "Hey guys, let's go to the bowling alley". It's not obvious to me that some of the women are going to be more put off by that, then any one person in the group was put off by the sex/toilet joke. > Plus, if you read kibwen's comment below that, it's not something that's considered a serious offence, but you will be asked to stop. Jeez. > Also, it's an unofficial blog post. Not the same standards. Not the same standards as what? The fucking IIRC channel? The ruckus that started that rust thread was some jerk making a tasteless comment (of course not the "hey guys" thing) in IIRC. Is that an official outlet? It seems to me that anyone who is part of the Rust community is being asked to be mindful of using the word "guys". And though they can't police unofficial blog posts, I assume they would care how some member of the community - through an unofficial blog post or whatever - write, if he takes it "back to the community" (like posting the blog on the rust subreddit).
  - Ygg2 11y ago
    > I guess the Rust community isn't so carefree and non-sensitive after all. Carefree? Mostly. Non-sensitive? Pretty much the opposite. Rust community is extremely sensitive. The rules are lax, but they draw the line at making contributors uncomfortable. In IRC, the poop jokes and calling people guys, would have the same chance of drawing ire, which isn't huge. The whole "guys" thing is just a smidge more likely to draw ire. However if you are insistent on either accounts expect to get ostracized. > I guess they don't feel like they belong in any part of mixed gender society then, since it is so widespread. Well, yes. It's not like women make on average less than their male peers. ------------------- Let me show an abriged version of what usually happens in IRC. Anon: Hi guys, Mod: We prefer the term guys and gals :) Anon: Hi guys and gals* Anonhole: Hi guys Mod: We prefer the term guys and gals :) Anonhole: I know. Mod: We have a term of conduct, please read it. Anonhole: I won't Mod: *ban* Anonhole
    - pekk 11y ago
      While it is certainly informal to say "guys," I have heard both men and women use it in a definitely gender-neutral sense for my entire life, including in workplaces, and informality is not impolite in an informal setting like an IRC channel. I wasn't sure if I was crazy here so I asked a couple of women I know and they were as surprised as I was. By contrast, nobody uses the word "gals" - it sounds incredibly awkward and lame. Perhaps the use of the word "guys" is regional, like "y'all" (sadly, it seems like English does not have any universally established pronoun for this). It's sad that you are proud of treating people who are new to Rust by permanently excluding people and labeling them as assholes for using idioms which are considered perfectly courteous and gender-neutral in many places. Given that, banning people just for using the word "guys" smacks of finding excuses to harass and ban people more than offering a welcoming community. If this is "what usually happens in IRC" then that might be a clue that there are dialect differences you aren't recognizing? Insofar as you are representing the Rust community via HN, you've given an overwhelming impression that the Rust community is an unpleasant place where "outsiders" are totally unwelcome. As someone who considered adopting Rust prior to reading your post, that's a problem because with such an immature language I would eventually have to interact with that community and then I would apparently have to deal with people randomly nitpicking which dialect of English I learned and calling me an asshole. No thanks, life is too short.
- ncphillips 11y ago
  I dunno, I'll say "hi guys" to groups of women as well as mixed or male groups. I've also heard girls say "hi guys" to a mixed group. I've also heard people say things like "hey up A" where A is in ["guys and gals", "guys and girls", "everyone", "mothafuckas", "nerds", "friends", "all you", "people", etc.] Coming form a very formal understanding of language, I can see how it could be taken as a reference to only the men, but coming from my practical experience, "guys" has been used as a gender neutral way of referencing a group without issue. Now that I think of it, this really is a context sensitive issue. For example, saying "hi guys" to a group of 100 with only one or two women in it might give some listeners the impression that there are no women, thus perpetuating the "boys club" view, whereas saying "hi guys" to an evenly mixed group might not give the listeners that impression. Language is hard yo.
  - Manishearth 11y ago
    > but coming from my practical experience, "guys" has been used as a gender neutral way of referencing a group without issue That's sort of the problem here. We're so used to it that we forget that it might not mean the same thing to others.
Ygg2 11y ago
As I understand, "guys" wasn't a huge problem but the discussion that followed. It got ugly quick. I'm pretty sure even Spanish has the variant of "guys and gals". What I want is besides the point. It's a club. It has rules. I'm Ok with them. I usually go with "Hi peeps!" (Yes, I imagine everyone on Rust IRC is a talking marshfellow).
- kzrdude 11y ago
  Spanish nouns have two genders, and a corresponding plural for a noun of that genders. When you have a mixed group, both chicos (boys) and chicas (girls) you use the masuline plural (chicos). I've also noticed that male genitalia are used to mean something positive (es la polla, tener cojones) and female genitalia are generally used to be negative (un coñazo, coño)
  - michaelmior 11y ago
    I think the suggestion was that you could use "chicos y chicas." But I don't imagine any native Spanish speaker would find chicos discriminatory.
    - kzrdude 11y ago
      There is certainly some awareness of the issue. For example preferering neutral words such as estudiantes in some contexts.
- pekk 11y ago
  You're okay with the rules because you live in the clubhouse. The fact that you are pulling up the ladder to keep other people out unless they roll over and pee themselves to acknowledge your dominance speaks volumes about what life is like inside the clubhouse.
  - Ygg2 11y ago
    Nope. I'm just a guy passing through that knows the customs and didn't enter the house with his shoes on (well, there was that one time). Rust community in my experience only ever censored people that were actively rude for a long time - I'm talking months if not years. Anyway, if Rust community did allow such transgressions, people would be up in arms because they are promoting Linus brand of verbal abuse... It's like they say - you can't please everyone.

by Dewie2 11y ago

Manishearth 11y ago

Yeah, no, the default male plural pronoun in other languages is a language feature. One doesn't feel like they're being called male when it's used. On the other hand "guys" sounds like you're being called, well, a guy (and English has singular they and many other constructs that can be used in its place). Usage of "guys" makes many women feel they don't belong. It perpetuates ideas about programming being a boys club that shouldn't exist. Poop jokes might make some people uncomfortable, but they're not as harmful as "guys". Plus, if you read kibwen's comment below that, it's not something that's considered a serious offence, but you will be asked to stop. The same would probably go for excessive poop jokes in IRC or whatever. (Also, it's an unofficial blog post. Not the same standards. There wouldn't be poop jokes on an official blog post, and there wouldn't be much of a ruckus if someone used "guys" in an unofficial one)

Dewie2 11y ago
I guess the Rust community isn't so carefree and non-sensitive after all. > On the other hand "guys" sounds like you're being called, well, a guy "Guys" means that you're in a mixed gender company. > (and English has singular they and many other constructs that can be used in its place). And that's great. But it can lead to writing that feels unnatural - because "they" means something else in other contexts, and it is unusual - so it isn't like it's a clear, objective win over the more usual form. > Usage of "guys" makes many women feel they don't belong. It perpetuates ideas about programming being a boys club that shouldn't exist. I guess they don't feel like they belong in any part of mixed gender society then, since it is so widespread. Or are programmers really that more inclined to say "guys"? I guess I can see the argument for the fact that the programming group might be heavily male-skewed. > Poop jokes might make some people uncomfortable, but they're not as harmful as "guys". Which you're just going to arbitrarily decide? What do you propose to back that claim up with? Imagine a mixed gender group of people. They are having a normal conversation. All of a sudden, someone drops a sexual joke, or a toilet joke. I can imagine that some people might feel a bit put off, or like they don't belong. Now alternatively, someone says "Hey guys, let's go to the bowling alley". It's not obvious to me that some of the women are going to be more put off by that, then any one person in the group was put off by the sex/toilet joke. > Plus, if you read kibwen's comment below that, it's not something that's considered a serious offence, but you will be asked to stop. Jeez. > Also, it's an unofficial blog post. Not the same standards. Not the same standards as what? The fucking IIRC channel? The ruckus that started that rust thread was some jerk making a tasteless comment (of course not the "hey guys" thing) in IIRC. Is that an official outlet? It seems to me that anyone who is part of the Rust community is being asked to be mindful of using the word "guys". And though they can't police unofficial blog posts, I assume they would care how some member of the community - through an unofficial blog post or whatever - write, if he takes it "back to the community" (like posting the blog on the rust subreddit).
- Ygg2 11y ago
  > I guess the Rust community isn't so carefree and non-sensitive after all. Carefree? Mostly. Non-sensitive? Pretty much the opposite. Rust community is extremely sensitive. The rules are lax, but they draw the line at making contributors uncomfortable. In IRC, the poop jokes and calling people guys, would have the same chance of drawing ire, which isn't huge. The whole "guys" thing is just a smidge more likely to draw ire. However if you are insistent on either accounts expect to get ostracized. > I guess they don't feel like they belong in any part of mixed gender society then, since it is so widespread. Well, yes. It's not like women make on average less than their male peers. ------------------- Let me show an abriged version of what usually happens in IRC. Anon: Hi guys, Mod: We prefer the term guys and gals :) Anon: Hi guys and gals* Anonhole: Hi guys Mod: We prefer the term guys and gals :) Anonhole: I know. Mod: We have a term of conduct, please read it. Anonhole: I won't Mod: *ban* Anonhole
  - pekk 11y ago
    While it is certainly informal to say "guys," I have heard both men and women use it in a definitely gender-neutral sense for my entire life, including in workplaces, and informality is not impolite in an informal setting like an IRC channel. I wasn't sure if I was crazy here so I asked a couple of women I know and they were as surprised as I was. By contrast, nobody uses the word "gals" - it sounds incredibly awkward and lame. Perhaps the use of the word "guys" is regional, like "y'all" (sadly, it seems like English does not have any universally established pronoun for this). It's sad that you are proud of treating people who are new to Rust by permanently excluding people and labeling them as assholes for using idioms which are considered perfectly courteous and gender-neutral in many places. Given that, banning people just for using the word "guys" smacks of finding excuses to harass and ban people more than offering a welcoming community. If this is "what usually happens in IRC" then that might be a clue that there are dialect differences you aren't recognizing? Insofar as you are representing the Rust community via HN, you've given an overwhelming impression that the Rust community is an unpleasant place where "outsiders" are totally unwelcome. As someone who considered adopting Rust prior to reading your post, that's a problem because with such an immature language I would eventually have to interact with that community and then I would apparently have to deal with people randomly nitpicking which dialect of English I learned and calling me an asshole. No thanks, life is too short.
ncphillips 11y ago
I dunno, I'll say "hi guys" to groups of women as well as mixed or male groups. I've also heard girls say "hi guys" to a mixed group. I've also heard people say things like "hey up A" where A is in ["guys and gals", "guys and girls", "everyone", "mothafuckas", "nerds", "friends", "all you", "people", etc.] Coming form a very formal understanding of language, I can see how it could be taken as a reference to only the men, but coming from my practical experience, "guys" has been used as a gender neutral way of referencing a group without issue. Now that I think of it, this really is a context sensitive issue. For example, saying "hi guys" to a group of 100 with only one or two women in it might give some listeners the impression that there are no women, thus perpetuating the "boys club" view, whereas saying "hi guys" to an evenly mixed group might not give the listeners that impression. Language is hard yo.
- Manishearth 11y ago
  > but coming from my practical experience, "guys" has been used as a gender neutral way of referencing a group without issue That's sort of the problem here. We're so used to it that we forget that it might not mean the same thing to others.

Ygg2 11y ago

As I understand, "guys" wasn't a huge problem but the discussion that followed. It got ugly quick. I'm pretty sure even Spanish has the variant of "guys and gals". What I want is besides the point. It's a club. It has rules. I'm Ok with them. I usually go with "Hi peeps!" (Yes, I imagine everyone on Rust IRC is a talking marshfellow).

kzrdude 11y ago
Spanish nouns have two genders, and a corresponding plural for a noun of that genders. When you have a mixed group, both chicos (boys) and chicas (girls) you use the masuline plural (chicos). I've also noticed that male genitalia are used to mean something positive (es la polla, tener cojones) and female genitalia are generally used to be negative (un coñazo, coño)
- michaelmior 11y ago
  I think the suggestion was that you could use "chicos y chicas." But I don't imagine any native Spanish speaker would find chicos discriminatory.
  - kzrdude 11y ago
    There is certainly some awareness of the issue. For example preferering neutral words such as estudiantes in some contexts.
pekk 11y ago
You're okay with the rules because you live in the clubhouse. The fact that you are pulling up the ladder to keep other people out unless they roll over and pee themselves to acknowledge your dominance speaks volumes about what life is like inside the clubhouse.
- Ygg2 11y ago
  Nope. I'm just a guy passing through that knows the customs and didn't enter the house with his shoes on (well, there was that one time). Rust community in my experience only ever censored people that were actively rude for a long time - I'm talking months if not years. Anyway, if Rust community did allow such transgressions, people would be up in arms because they are promoting Linus brand of verbal abuse... It's like they say - you can't please everyone.