4 ms·

You have the right to your own feelings, and I agree that the title may be off putting. The audience for the article is rust core contributors and rust fans, an

You have the right to your own feelings, and I agree that the title may be off putting. The audience for the article is rust core contributors and rust fans, and they're a very informal bunch. If rusters are like similar communities I know, talking about poop makes a blog post more likely to spread. EDIT: I do not want to argue with Dewey2, so I'm putting this here: the women in the rust community that feel uncomfortable when they are addressed as "guys" have every right to feel that way, and I commend the rust community on making that stand.

Dewie2 11y ago
A community that is informal enough to give analogies involving poop, but too uptight to stomach the gender-neutral use of the word "guys"[1]. Makes sense. [1] http://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/1nvsdh/a_note_on_conduct_please_read/ccmnjdj http://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/1nvsdh/a_note_on_condu...
- Ygg2 11y ago
  Because toilet humor and gender discrimination are the same?
  - Dewie2 11y ago
    Because "guys" is gender discrimination? Give me a break. Might as well call ~everyone who speaks the Spanish language massive sexists while you're at it. I guess it is if you're oversensitive to everything that might be construed as sexist, through any historical, cultural etc. link. Like some people are oversensitive about bodily functions. Besides, some groups of people might be put off by such crass analogies. You don't want to exclude those people, do you Ygg2?
    - Manishearth 11y ago
      Yeah, no, the default male plural pronoun in other languages is a language feature. One doesn't feel like they're being called male when it's used. On the other hand "guys" sounds like you're being called, well, a guy (and English has singular they and many other constructs that can be used in its place). Usage of "guys" makes many women feel they don't belong. It perpetuates ideas about programming being a boys club that shouldn't exist. Poop jokes might make some people uncomfortable, but they're not as harmful as "guys". Plus, if you read kibwen's comment below that, it's not something that's considered a serious offence, but you will be asked to stop. The same would probably go for excessive poop jokes in IRC or whatever. (Also, it's an unofficial blog post. Not the same standards. There wouldn't be poop jokes on an official blog post, and there wouldn't be much of a ruckus if someone used "guys" in an unofficial one)
      - Dewie2 11y ago
        I guess the Rust community isn't so carefree and non-sensitive after all. > On the other hand "guys" sounds like you're being called, well, a guy "Guys" means that you're in a mixed gender company. > (and English has singular they and many other constructs that can be used in its place). And that's great. But it can lead to writing that feels unnatural - because "they" means something else in other contexts, and it is unusual - so it isn't like it's a clear, objective win over the more usual form. > Usage of "guys" makes many women feel they don't belong. It perpetuates ideas about programming being a boys club that shouldn't exist. I guess they don't feel like they belong in any part of mixed gender society then, since it is so widespread. Or are programmers really that more inclined to say "guys"? I guess I can see the argument for the fact that the programming group might be heavily male-skewed. > Poop jokes might make some people uncomfortable, but they're not as harmful as "guys". Which you're just going to arbitrarily decide? What do you propose to back that claim up with? Imagine a mixed gender group of people. They are having a normal conversation. All of a sudden, someone drops a sexual joke, or a toilet joke. I can imagine that some people might feel a bit put off, or like they don't belong. Now alternatively, someone says "Hey guys, let's go to the bowling alley". It's not obvious to me that some of the women are going to be more put off by that, then any one person in the group was put off by the sex/toilet joke. > Plus, if you read kibwen's comment below that, it's not something that's considered a serious offence, but you will be asked to stop. Jeez. > Also, it's an unofficial blog post. Not the same standards. Not the same standards as what? The fucking IIRC channel? The ruckus that started that rust thread was some jerk making a tasteless comment (of course not the "hey guys" thing) in IIRC. Is that an official outlet? It seems to me that anyone who is part of the Rust community is being asked to be mindful of using the word "guys". And though they can't police unofficial blog posts, I assume they would care how some member of the community - through an unofficial blog post or whatever - write, if he takes it "back to the community" (like posting the blog on the rust subreddit).
        Ygg2 11y ago
        > I guess the Rust community isn't so carefree and non-sensitive after all. Carefree? Mostly. Non-sensitive? Pretty much the opposite. Rust community is extremely sensitive. The rules are lax, but they draw the line at making contributors uncomfortable. In IRC, the poop jokes and calling people guys, would have the same chance of drawing ire, which isn't huge. The whole "guys" thing is just a smidge more likely to draw ire. However if you are insistent on either accounts expect to get ostracized. > I guess they don't feel like they belong in any part of mixed gender society then, since it is so widespread. Well, yes. It's not like women make on average less than their male peers. ------------------- Let me show an abriged version of what usually happens in IRC. Anon: Hi guys, Mod: We prefer the term guys and gals :) Anon: Hi guys and gals* Anonhole: Hi guys Mod: We prefer the term guys and gals :) Anonhole: I know. Mod: We have a term of conduct, please read it. Anonhole: I won't Mod: *ban* Anonhole
    - Ygg2 11y ago
      As I understand, "guys" wasn't a huge problem but the discussion that followed. It got ugly quick. I'm pretty sure even Spanish has the variant of "guys and gals". What I want is besides the point. It's a club. It has rules. I'm Ok with them. I usually go with "Hi peeps!" (Yes, I imagine everyone on Rust IRC is a talking marshfellow).
      - kzrdude 11y ago
        Spanish nouns have two genders, and a corresponding plural for a noun of that genders. When you have a mixed group, both chicos (boys) and chicas (girls) you use the masuline plural (chicos). I've also noticed that male genitalia are used to mean something positive (es la polla, tener cojones) and female genitalia are generally used to be negative (un coñazo, coño)
        michaelmior 11y ago
        I think the suggestion was that you could use "chicos y chicas." But I don't imagine any native Spanish speaker would find chicos discriminatory.
        kzrdude 11y ago
        There is certainly some awareness of the issue. For example preferering neutral words such as estudiantes in some contexts.
      - pekk 11y ago
        You're okay with the rules because you live in the clubhouse. The fact that you are pulling up the ladder to keep other people out unless they roll over and pee themselves to acknowledge your dominance speaks volumes about what life is like inside the clubhouse.
        Ygg2 11y ago
        Nope. I'm just a guy passing through that knows the customs and didn't enter the house with his shoes on (well, there was that one time). Rust community in my experience only ever censored people that were actively rude for a long time - I'm talking months if not years. Anyway, if Rust community did allow such transgressions, people would be up in arms because they are promoting Linus brand of verbal abuse... It's like they say - you can't please everyone.
- DanBC 11y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html "Please avoid introducing classic flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say about them." Your Dewie account was banned; this account is currently at -5.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - Dewie2 11y ago
    Since you're so interested in my activity here[1], you may notice that my very first, apparently terrible and flame-inducing post was about me pointing out that an article spelled someone's name wrong[2], modulo transliteration. Now you might argue that I was wrong, but do you really think that was such a terrible, unproductive and antagonistic post? The next mass of downvotes came when I replied sarcastically to someone who wrote that my concerns/arguments were "stupid" and not worthwhile. That provocative post towards me was, of course, not downvoted. My follow-up to my original, downvoted, post was at first well-recieved[3], but then creeped down to 1 again for some reason. I'm not a victim by any means, and I'm sometimes an asshole. But maybe you should stop taking Karma at face value and stop believing that this community is beyond reproach. If you want to go through my history - which on this account is quite short - at least do it better. [1] And your profile says nothing about you being a mod. [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9440971 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9440971 [3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9441604 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9441604
    - Dewie2 11y ago
      Once again, HN shows her judicious and tempered use of the downvote button. /s
    - DanBC 11y ago
      I'm trying to help. Your current posting style didn't work for your last account. It doesn't seem to be working for this account. > and I'm sometimes an asshole. Do you think this is working for you?
kzrdude 11y ago
There's nothing to suggest all other rust devs like this way of presenting it. I don't. I agree it's off-putting even if the issue itself is interesting.

Dewie2 11y ago

A community that is informal enough to give analogies involving poop, but too uptight to stomach the gender-neutral use of the word "guys"[1]. Makes sense. [1] http://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/1nvsdh/a_note_on_conduct_please_read/ccmnjdj http://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/1nvsdh/a_note_on_condu...

Ygg2 11y ago
Because toilet humor and gender discrimination are the same?
- Dewie2 11y ago
  Because "guys" is gender discrimination? Give me a break. Might as well call ~everyone who speaks the Spanish language massive sexists while you're at it. I guess it is if you're oversensitive to everything that might be construed as sexist, through any historical, cultural etc. link. Like some people are oversensitive about bodily functions. Besides, some groups of people might be put off by such crass analogies. You don't want to exclude those people, do you Ygg2?
  - Manishearth 11y ago
    Yeah, no, the default male plural pronoun in other languages is a language feature. One doesn't feel like they're being called male when it's used. On the other hand "guys" sounds like you're being called, well, a guy (and English has singular they and many other constructs that can be used in its place). Usage of "guys" makes many women feel they don't belong. It perpetuates ideas about programming being a boys club that shouldn't exist. Poop jokes might make some people uncomfortable, but they're not as harmful as "guys". Plus, if you read kibwen's comment below that, it's not something that's considered a serious offence, but you will be asked to stop. The same would probably go for excessive poop jokes in IRC or whatever. (Also, it's an unofficial blog post. Not the same standards. There wouldn't be poop jokes on an official blog post, and there wouldn't be much of a ruckus if someone used "guys" in an unofficial one)
    - Dewie2 11y ago
      I guess the Rust community isn't so carefree and non-sensitive after all. > On the other hand "guys" sounds like you're being called, well, a guy "Guys" means that you're in a mixed gender company. > (and English has singular they and many other constructs that can be used in its place). And that's great. But it can lead to writing that feels unnatural - because "they" means something else in other contexts, and it is unusual - so it isn't like it's a clear, objective win over the more usual form. > Usage of "guys" makes many women feel they don't belong. It perpetuates ideas about programming being a boys club that shouldn't exist. I guess they don't feel like they belong in any part of mixed gender society then, since it is so widespread. Or are programmers really that more inclined to say "guys"? I guess I can see the argument for the fact that the programming group might be heavily male-skewed. > Poop jokes might make some people uncomfortable, but they're not as harmful as "guys". Which you're just going to arbitrarily decide? What do you propose to back that claim up with? Imagine a mixed gender group of people. They are having a normal conversation. All of a sudden, someone drops a sexual joke, or a toilet joke. I can imagine that some people might feel a bit put off, or like they don't belong. Now alternatively, someone says "Hey guys, let's go to the bowling alley". It's not obvious to me that some of the women are going to be more put off by that, then any one person in the group was put off by the sex/toilet joke. > Plus, if you read kibwen's comment below that, it's not something that's considered a serious offence, but you will be asked to stop. Jeez. > Also, it's an unofficial blog post. Not the same standards. Not the same standards as what? The fucking IIRC channel? The ruckus that started that rust thread was some jerk making a tasteless comment (of course not the "hey guys" thing) in IIRC. Is that an official outlet? It seems to me that anyone who is part of the Rust community is being asked to be mindful of using the word "guys". And though they can't police unofficial blog posts, I assume they would care how some member of the community - through an unofficial blog post or whatever - write, if he takes it "back to the community" (like posting the blog on the rust subreddit).
      - Ygg2 11y ago
        > I guess the Rust community isn't so carefree and non-sensitive after all. Carefree? Mostly. Non-sensitive? Pretty much the opposite. Rust community is extremely sensitive. The rules are lax, but they draw the line at making contributors uncomfortable. In IRC, the poop jokes and calling people guys, would have the same chance of drawing ire, which isn't huge. The whole "guys" thing is just a smidge more likely to draw ire. However if you are insistent on either accounts expect to get ostracized. > I guess they don't feel like they belong in any part of mixed gender society then, since it is so widespread. Well, yes. It's not like women make on average less than their male peers. ------------------- Let me show an abriged version of what usually happens in IRC. Anon: Hi guys, Mod: We prefer the term guys and gals :) Anon: Hi guys and gals* Anonhole: Hi guys Mod: We prefer the term guys and gals :) Anonhole: I know. Mod: We have a term of conduct, please read it. Anonhole: I won't Mod: *ban* Anonhole
  - Ygg2 11y ago
    As I understand, "guys" wasn't a huge problem but the discussion that followed. It got ugly quick. I'm pretty sure even Spanish has the variant of "guys and gals". What I want is besides the point. It's a club. It has rules. I'm Ok with them. I usually go with "Hi peeps!" (Yes, I imagine everyone on Rust IRC is a talking marshfellow).
    - kzrdude 11y ago
      Spanish nouns have two genders, and a corresponding plural for a noun of that genders. When you have a mixed group, both chicos (boys) and chicas (girls) you use the masuline plural (chicos). I've also noticed that male genitalia are used to mean something positive (es la polla, tener cojones) and female genitalia are generally used to be negative (un coñazo, coño)
      - michaelmior 11y ago
        I think the suggestion was that you could use "chicos y chicas." But I don't imagine any native Spanish speaker would find chicos discriminatory.
        kzrdude 11y ago
        There is certainly some awareness of the issue. For example preferering neutral words such as estudiantes in some contexts.
    - pekk 11y ago
      You're okay with the rules because you live in the clubhouse. The fact that you are pulling up the ladder to keep other people out unless they roll over and pee themselves to acknowledge your dominance speaks volumes about what life is like inside the clubhouse.
      - Ygg2 11y ago
        Nope. I'm just a guy passing through that knows the customs and didn't enter the house with his shoes on (well, there was that one time). Rust community in my experience only ever censored people that were actively rude for a long time - I'm talking months if not years. Anyway, if Rust community did allow such transgressions, people would be up in arms because they are promoting Linus brand of verbal abuse... It's like they say - you can't please everyone.
DanBC 11y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html "Please avoid introducing classic flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say about them." Your Dewie account was banned; this account is currently at -5.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- Dewie2 11y ago
  Since you're so interested in my activity here[1], you may notice that my very first, apparently terrible and flame-inducing post was about me pointing out that an article spelled someone's name wrong[2], modulo transliteration. Now you might argue that I was wrong, but do you really think that was such a terrible, unproductive and antagonistic post? The next mass of downvotes came when I replied sarcastically to someone who wrote that my concerns/arguments were "stupid" and not worthwhile. That provocative post towards me was, of course, not downvoted. My follow-up to my original, downvoted, post was at first well-recieved[3], but then creeped down to 1 again for some reason. I'm not a victim by any means, and I'm sometimes an asshole. But maybe you should stop taking Karma at face value and stop believing that this community is beyond reproach. If you want to go through my history - which on this account is quite short - at least do it better. [1] And your profile says nothing about you being a mod. [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9440971 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9440971 [3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9441604 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9441604
  - Dewie2 11y ago
    Once again, HN shows her judicious and tempered use of the downvote button. /s
  - DanBC 11y ago
    I'm trying to help. Your current posting style didn't work for your last account. It doesn't seem to be working for this account. > and I'm sometimes an asshole. Do you think this is working for you?

kzrdude 11y ago

There's nothing to suggest all other rust devs like this way of presenting it. I don't. I agree it's off-putting even if the issue itself is interesting.