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Police often get calls about domestic disputes that require them to go inside houses. Would you want a video from inside your house to have to be made available

Police often get calls about domestic disputes that require them to go inside houses. Would you want a video from inside your house to have to be made available to the public by law?

higherpurpose 12y ago
Even if the "one-size-fits-all philosophy" about this doesn't work, it could still be regulated in a way where most of the video is public. Cop responds to a domestic issue and knocks on the door? He records himself prior to that in front of the door saying he will close the camera for that next action. SWAT team about to enter a home or use a "no-knock" warrant? They aren't allowed to turn off the camera there. Same for the vast majority of the other police actions that happen in public. Unfortunately, I'm sure the cops will find some loopholes to abuse this, too, and turn off the cameras when they aren't supposed to, especially if nobody ever punishes cops for such actions (which they don't), but I'd probably still take that over making all footage private by default. In many cases the cops doing bad things would still get caught because they forgot to turn off the camera or didn't think ahead to do it.
- ptaipale 12y ago
  If the cameras can be turned off, they will be turned off whenever some bad cop wants to do something he or she does not want to be on record. So the cameras will not be useful. Either the cameras are on all the time, or you can forget about them.
  - bigiain 12y ago
    Or you let the cops know that unexpectedly missing footage will be interpreted as strongly confirming of accusations against them. And then back that up with career advancement metrics designed to motivate individual cops to ensure their camera gear is working and reliable. Missing 2% of your bodycam footage a week without having made a documented effort to get it repaired/replaced is a warnable offence. Missing more than 5% you get your pay docked. Miss 5% more than twice in a calendar year is a sackable offence. Any claims made in court about events that happen while your bodycam footage is unavailable remove your usual police department protection, and expose you to civil suits that you're normally shielded from. If a civil suit rules that "in the balance of probabilities" you were wrong, you become personally exposed to damages. As the law & order types love to say "If you're not doing anything wrong, you've got nothing to fear." It cuts both ways.
    - Snesker 12y ago
      That allowable 1.9% of 40-60 hours of work could be a murder.
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
    - ptaipale 12y ago
      Cameras can malfunction. Buttons do malfunction. Having unexpected missing footage will be perfectly normal if there is a button that is used for breaks etc, because the police will have a reasonable explanation for why the button press didn't register (like "I was having a donut break, I was stepping out of the car, it looked as if someone was pulling a gun, and at the same time the police radio reported of a warning of an armed suspect, I could not stop there to confirm that the camera went on, I just ducked behind the car.") There's a wider culture issue with American police organisations, and my understanding is that the situation varies wildly across different states and cities. I don't think that adding complex camera usage rules will help a lot. I'm not American, and in my country of 5.5 million people the police use the gun about 50 times a year; in this context, pointing gun at someone counts as "using" the gun and needs to be reported. In 2013 the police fired six bullets (training shots are obviously not counted, but warning shots are). And that six bullets is not per one policeman, they are for the entire police force of 7800 police officers. And yes, the general public here has almost as many firearms per capita as the Americans do. It's just a different culture. Not one without violence or homicide, but still quite different, from the police point of view.
      - fnordfnordfnord 12y ago
        It's not a complex rule. If you're an officer, have a camera, and you have been accused of wrongdoing, then summary dismissal of the charges will not be possible if the footage is absent.
  - JshWright 12y ago
    > If the cameras can be turned off Have you given any thought to the implications of wearing a camera for 8-12 hours a day? Cops need to use the bathroom too... Body cameras will always need to have the ability to be turned off.
    - ptaipale 12y ago
      Of course this is a real problem. But if the camera can be turned off, then it will not be recording all bad behaviour, because the policeman can turn it off when he wants to (and then, instead of going to the bathroom, he can shoot someone).
- Natsu 12y ago
  I'd say it should only be public when used as part of a court case (introduced as evidence by either party), with the juries instructed that they may draw adverse inferences if the video goes missing for any reason (i.e. losing the tape is automatically suspect). The rest of the time it should be kept and unwatched. Ideally, I also think it would be best if everyone had to give sworn statements before they knew what was or wasn't on video (so nobody gets to change stories to match...) and that the video was stored, archived, etc. by an outside agency that doesn't answer to either party. But I wonder how much of that they'd be able to accomplish.
- tbrownaw 12y ago
  Instead of turning the camera off, flag that section as private (and only available thru the courts and whatever lesser internal review / complaint mechanism).
  - TheCondor 12y ago
    Or what about a waiver signed by those recorded.. We could, you know, give some if the power to the people involved.

Police often get calls about domestic disputes that require them to go inside houses. Would you want a video from inside your house to have to be made available to the public by law?

higherpurpose 12y ago

Even if the "one-size-fits-all philosophy" about this doesn't work, it could still be regulated in a way where most of the video is public. Cop responds to a domestic issue and knocks on the door? He records himself prior to that in front of the door saying he will close the camera for that next action. SWAT team about to enter a home or use a "no-knock" warrant? They aren't allowed to turn off the camera there. Same for the vast majority of the other police actions that happen in public. Unfortunately, I'm sure the cops will find some loopholes to abuse this, too, and turn off the cameras when they aren't supposed to, especially if nobody ever punishes cops for such actions (which they don't), but I'd probably still take that over making all footage private by default. In many cases the cops doing bad things would still get caught because they forgot to turn off the camera or didn't think ahead to do it.

ptaipale 12y ago
If the cameras can be turned off, they will be turned off whenever some bad cop wants to do something he or she does not want to be on record. So the cameras will not be useful. Either the cameras are on all the time, or you can forget about them.
- bigiain 12y ago
  Or you let the cops know that unexpectedly missing footage will be interpreted as strongly confirming of accusations against them. And then back that up with career advancement metrics designed to motivate individual cops to ensure their camera gear is working and reliable. Missing 2% of your bodycam footage a week without having made a documented effort to get it repaired/replaced is a warnable offence. Missing more than 5% you get your pay docked. Miss 5% more than twice in a calendar year is a sackable offence. Any claims made in court about events that happen while your bodycam footage is unavailable remove your usual police department protection, and expose you to civil suits that you're normally shielded from. If a civil suit rules that "in the balance of probabilities" you were wrong, you become personally exposed to damages. As the law & order types love to say "If you're not doing anything wrong, you've got nothing to fear." It cuts both ways.
  - Snesker 12y ago
    That allowable 1.9% of 40-60 hours of work could be a murder.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - ptaipale 12y ago
    Cameras can malfunction. Buttons do malfunction. Having unexpected missing footage will be perfectly normal if there is a button that is used for breaks etc, because the police will have a reasonable explanation for why the button press didn't register (like "I was having a donut break, I was stepping out of the car, it looked as if someone was pulling a gun, and at the same time the police radio reported of a warning of an armed suspect, I could not stop there to confirm that the camera went on, I just ducked behind the car.") There's a wider culture issue with American police organisations, and my understanding is that the situation varies wildly across different states and cities. I don't think that adding complex camera usage rules will help a lot. I'm not American, and in my country of 5.5 million people the police use the gun about 50 times a year; in this context, pointing gun at someone counts as "using" the gun and needs to be reported. In 2013 the police fired six bullets (training shots are obviously not counted, but warning shots are). And that six bullets is not per one policeman, they are for the entire police force of 7800 police officers. And yes, the general public here has almost as many firearms per capita as the Americans do. It's just a different culture. Not one without violence or homicide, but still quite different, from the police point of view.
    - fnordfnordfnord 12y ago
      It's not a complex rule. If you're an officer, have a camera, and you have been accused of wrongdoing, then summary dismissal of the charges will not be possible if the footage is absent.
- JshWright 12y ago
  > If the cameras can be turned off Have you given any thought to the implications of wearing a camera for 8-12 hours a day? Cops need to use the bathroom too... Body cameras will always need to have the ability to be turned off.
  - ptaipale 12y ago
    Of course this is a real problem. But if the camera can be turned off, then it will not be recording all bad behaviour, because the policeman can turn it off when he wants to (and then, instead of going to the bathroom, he can shoot someone).
Natsu 12y ago
I'd say it should only be public when used as part of a court case (introduced as evidence by either party), with the juries instructed that they may draw adverse inferences if the video goes missing for any reason (i.e. losing the tape is automatically suspect). The rest of the time it should be kept and unwatched. Ideally, I also think it would be best if everyone had to give sworn statements before they knew what was or wasn't on video (so nobody gets to change stories to match...) and that the video was stored, archived, etc. by an outside agency that doesn't answer to either party. But I wonder how much of that they'd be able to accomplish.
tbrownaw 12y ago
Instead of turning the camera off, flag that section as private (and only available thru the courts and whatever lesser internal review / complaint mechanism).
- TheCondor 12y ago
  Or what about a waiver signed by those recorded.. We could, you know, give some if the power to the people involved.