4 ms·

"Being able to program should not come with an automatic requirement to be fluent in English as well." It doesn't, and I merely said that I think it's good pra

by sb 17y ago

"Being able to program should not come with an automatic requirement to be fluent in English as well." It doesn't, and I merely said that I think it's good practice to do so. (For various reasons, e.g. a multi-national team, possible maintenance and re-engineering scenarios where it might be helpful to use standardized abbreviations, etc.) I have personally worked on a reengineering project that used German identifiers because of a very specific ERP system--it was ultimately decided not to use English identifiers because the translations would be too cumbersome. (This was a small company, what I am trying to say is a company like SAP [big] code a DBMS [inherently English domain] using German comments makes no sense to me...)

jacquesm 17y ago
I think you have a 'neutrality of viewpoint' issue. SAP = BIG = not a reason to do stuff in english DBMS = inherently English domain because people don't use their own language, that's self-referential Using German comments makes perfect sense, SAP being a German company. It works like this: a company starts out making a product for their local market, they get successful and branch out, and then a large amount of time later their code gets opened up to programmers not familiar with the native language. Now, if the company were American, nobody would have a problem with dealing with identifiers and comments in what is for them a foreign language, say English. But I really don't see why an American programmer would have a bigger problem dealing with identifiers and comments in German than vv. Computer programming is not an exclusively English domain, and if to you code with identifiers and comments in a foreign language is hard to read then you have a bit of a hint how much effort the rest of the world has to make in order to make that step. The fact that English got there 'first' is already enough of a head start, that shouldn't mean it becomes mandatory. Something similar happens in the world of scientific publishing, where basically publishing in Spanish, Greek or Dutch is equal to not publishing at all. An algorithm with Dutch, German or Swahili identifiers and comments is exactly equivalent to one in English. Probably if you spent enough time you could figure out what the comments meant even if you didn't speak the language. Not that that would be very productive, and that's why most larger companies (and definitely multinationals) standardize on English. You should be happy that's the case, but it is by no means a requirement or a sign of not being professional. If 90% of the team is German I'm all for them coding in German.
- sb 17y ago
  I am happy to assure you that I have no issue whatsoever, and I completely understand your argument--though I did not ever intend for it to get to quasi-religious dimensions. But for me this is a matter of taste and personal preference; nothing anyone can write will get me to abandon it (neither will anyone but myself be able to change any other of my preferences.)
  - foldr 17y ago
    It seems a little unreasonable to enter into a discussion if you're not open to changing your opinions based on what other people say. It's your prerogative, of course, but why bother discussing these things if your opinions are so fixed?
    - sb 17y ago
      It certainly does not only seem to be unreasonable, but it actually is. Probably I did not even recognize a discussion here, because to me it was just a simple matter of preference and therefore did not want to get into a full-blown discussion in the first place. (HN already distracts too much time than I can regularly afford without discussions.) PS: I would like to edit my previous comment on the "nobody can change except me"-thing but seem unable to do so. For clarification: I did mean it that takes initiative from me to change my preference and not to be denying written word by someone else as being able to change my mind (which would be obtuse and absurd since it would preclude learning anything from someone else).
      - jacquesm 17y ago
        HN has some subtlety, and not allowing you to edit your comments past a certain point is there for a purpose, in this case that purpose is served well, because the GP would look a little weird if you could edit the meaning of your comment. Because you can't and you can 'catch' your mistake with a follow up comment there is absolutely no problem and the whole page makes sense.
stonemetal 17y ago
>DBMS [inherently English domain] What about DBs make it inherently English? If a German person needs to store data in a way that an Englishman might employ a DBMS, what construct does he turn to?
- sb 17y ago
  The domain of DBMS being English was meant for the implementation language of the DBMS, not any application of said DBMS. To the best of my knowledge, the first database management systems were created in English speaking countries and all research relating to them is English, too. Therefore the "vocabulary" is English and it seems natural for me to choose English as the implementation language for implementing a DBMS (or not so: I implement everything in English, because it enables others to read and understand it, so it is easier for me to share and for someone else to benefit from it [that's probably the main reason for any lingua franca]) PS: btw: I am not an English native, nor a resident of any English-speaking country.
  - stonemetal 17y ago
    All I am saying is Automotive engineering doesn't have a must speak German to work clause just because the first modern automobile was made in Germany. French mathematicians don't have to speak English to be taken seriously. Software development shouldn't have an English requirement. The only reason the vocabulary of CS is English is because speakers of other languages haven't taken ownership of their work and instead contribute it in English. To match your btw: I am an English native, and a resident of any English-speaking country. I find it kind of sad that people are trying to kill off their native tongue by not keeping it up to date.

by sb 17y ago

jacquesm 17y ago

I think you have a 'neutrality of viewpoint' issue. SAP = BIG = not a reason to do stuff in english DBMS = inherently English domain because people don't use their own language, that's self-referential Using German comments makes perfect sense, SAP being a German company. It works like this: a company starts out making a product for their local market, they get successful and branch out, and then a large amount of time later their code gets opened up to programmers not familiar with the native language. Now, if the company were American, nobody would have a problem with dealing with identifiers and comments in what is for them a foreign language, say English. But I really don't see why an American programmer would have a bigger problem dealing with identifiers and comments in German than vv. Computer programming is not an exclusively English domain, and if to you code with identifiers and comments in a foreign language is hard to read then you have a bit of a hint how much effort the rest of the world has to make in order to make that step. The fact that English got there 'first' is already enough of a head start, that shouldn't mean it becomes mandatory. Something similar happens in the world of scientific publishing, where basically publishing in Spanish, Greek or Dutch is equal to not publishing at all. An algorithm with Dutch, German or Swahili identifiers and comments is exactly equivalent to one in English. Probably if you spent enough time you could figure out what the comments meant even if you didn't speak the language. Not that that would be very productive, and that's why most larger companies (and definitely multinationals) standardize on English. You should be happy that's the case, but it is by no means a requirement or a sign of not being professional. If 90% of the team is German I'm all for them coding in German.

sb 17y ago
I am happy to assure you that I have no issue whatsoever, and I completely understand your argument--though I did not ever intend for it to get to quasi-religious dimensions. But for me this is a matter of taste and personal preference; nothing anyone can write will get me to abandon it (neither will anyone but myself be able to change any other of my preferences.)
- foldr 17y ago
  It seems a little unreasonable to enter into a discussion if you're not open to changing your opinions based on what other people say. It's your prerogative, of course, but why bother discussing these things if your opinions are so fixed?
  - sb 17y ago
    It certainly does not only seem to be unreasonable, but it actually is. Probably I did not even recognize a discussion here, because to me it was just a simple matter of preference and therefore did not want to get into a full-blown discussion in the first place. (HN already distracts too much time than I can regularly afford without discussions.) PS: I would like to edit my previous comment on the "nobody can change except me"-thing but seem unable to do so. For clarification: I did mean it that takes initiative from me to change my preference and not to be denying written word by someone else as being able to change my mind (which would be obtuse and absurd since it would preclude learning anything from someone else).
    - jacquesm 17y ago
      HN has some subtlety, and not allowing you to edit your comments past a certain point is there for a purpose, in this case that purpose is served well, because the GP would look a little weird if you could edit the meaning of your comment. Because you can't and you can 'catch' your mistake with a follow up comment there is absolutely no problem and the whole page makes sense.

stonemetal 17y ago

>DBMS [inherently English domain] What about DBs make it inherently English? If a German person needs to store data in a way that an Englishman might employ a DBMS, what construct does he turn to?

sb 17y ago
The domain of DBMS being English was meant for the implementation language of the DBMS, not any application of said DBMS. To the best of my knowledge, the first database management systems were created in English speaking countries and all research relating to them is English, too. Therefore the "vocabulary" is English and it seems natural for me to choose English as the implementation language for implementing a DBMS (or not so: I implement everything in English, because it enables others to read and understand it, so it is easier for me to share and for someone else to benefit from it [that's probably the main reason for any lingua franca]) PS: btw: I am not an English native, nor a resident of any English-speaking country.
- stonemetal 17y ago
  All I am saying is Automotive engineering doesn't have a must speak German to work clause just because the first modern automobile was made in Germany. French mathematicians don't have to speak English to be taken seriously. Software development shouldn't have an English requirement. The only reason the vocabulary of CS is English is because speakers of other languages haven't taken ownership of their work and instead contribute it in English. To match your btw: I am an English native, and a resident of any English-speaking country. I find it kind of sad that people are trying to kill off their native tongue by not keeping it up to date.