5 ms·

I've been unfairly fired several times, so my advice is: 1. Forget it, that job is over, it can't be salvaged. Knowing it's over, do the minimum work. 2. Sta

by fsk 11y ago

I've been unfairly fired several times, so my advice is: 1. Forget it, that job is over, it can't be salvaged. Knowing it's over, do the minimum work. 2. Start actively looking. Even if you don't find a new job within 30 days, you'll start getting interviews in your pipeline. 3. If it's so bad that it's making you sick (trouble sleeping, etc.), then just walk away now. Otherwise, there are advantages to saying on to the end. They might offer you some salary as severance. You might be eligible for unemployment. Even if they do fire you, for legal reasons, they'll probably word it as a layoff rather than a firing for cause. 4. I'd advise against a whisteblower lawsuit. It's a lot of stress with no guarantee of winning. 5. Don't be sure that you'll be blackballed. There's always another job.

baldfat 11y ago
I would counter. Don't get fired. If need be resign, but I would do everything I could to not be fired. Secondly I have thought that I was doing a good job but I was viewed negatively. I later found out that an ounce of criticism or attitude ruined my whole perspective. I had to learn that one comment or one person didn't decide who liked me. I just rolled with the punches and talked to managers and other non-related co-workers if they saw things the same way, but without complaining or seeing myself as a negative fault finding Nancy.
- fsk 11y ago
  Verbal criticism is one thing. Being put on a performance improvement plan (PIP) is another thing. Most of the time, your boss will only fill out a PIP as a precursor to firing you, because the bureaucracy requires it.
- AH4oFVbPT4f8 11y ago
  I don't agree with resigning. If you resign and are in the US, you give up the ability to file for unemployment. I would start cutting expenses and start looking for something new until that day comes.
  - ErrantX 11y ago
    Does the US allow "constructive dismissal" claims? In the UK, if you feel you are being worked out of a job the official advice is to quit, otherwise any claim of constructive dismissal becomes more complex.
    - Silhouette 11y ago
      I can confirm this can be a serious concern in the UK system. Someone close to me was in a similar situation a little while ago and did start a formal grievance process. Thanks to what seems to have been bad/late professional advice, they missed one of the deadlines for taking things further and consequently that formal process terminated. Around that time, they started taking professional advice from a different source and exploring their options, continuing to work for the employer in the meantime. They subsequently concluded that the job was beyond hope and resigned, IIRC a couple of months later, and lawyers started exchanging letters to try and avoid formal action. As I understand it, just about the first thing the former employer's lawyers did was point out that the former employee had remained in the job for a considerable time after the end of the formal grievance process without (as far as the employer was concerned) taking any further action. They argued this was sufficient evidence that no problems serious enough to be considered constructive dismissal remained at that time, and as it turned out, that was effectively game over. (This matter never went to formal action. Reportedly the advice given to the former employee at that point was that their former employer had a decent chance of winning on that basis, and even if they lost it would cause a lot of time and stress to pursue the matter to its full conclusion with limited benefit likely to result.) YMMV, if you need legal advice talk to a lawyer, etc. Just make sure you get better professional advice than this unfortunate person did, and get second opinions early if anyone advising you seems to be slow to respond or otherwise giving you less than their full support.
    - geoelectric 11y ago
      US is generally at-will(1), so the idea of being "subtly fired" only comes up in unemployment claims, where -sometimes- you can make the case you quit because you had no choice (hours dropped to zero, intentionally untenable working conditions, etc.). But otherwise, there are very few guarantees about the circumstances of being dismissed, and therefore not a lot of room for constructive dismissal type claims. (1) There are exceptions around specific circumstances: explicit contracts, implicit contracts (in some states) by way of publishing firing procedures in employee handbooks, and a requirement (in a very few states, but notably for software, California) for good-faith behavior by employers. PIPs are part of the "reason to dismiss" documentation for that last bit. Still, your usual recourse is collecting unemployment, not anything more drastic.
- jacquesm 11y ago
  I disagree. If you are doing an ok job you should not be resigning, better to let them fire you otherwise a whole pile of assist won't kick in because it is your decision to quit. It's fine to be fired for the wrong reasons and as an employer I wouldn't hold that against you. Use the 30 days to land another job.
Silhouette 11y ago
I've seen a similar thing happen to several friends and family in recent years. Even if your employer is generally a decent place to work, you can wind up with an immediate line manager who is hostile. This might be through no fault of your own, for example if the manager isn't actually very good themselves and so wants to put together a compliant team so they can take credit for the efforts of others. Keeping around competent but independent types who know what they're doing and might challenge the manager when they make bad calls is a threat to these people. It seems that such managers often do get called out eventually, particularly if they have a pattern of mistreating their immediate subordinates and start to show abnormally high numbers of complaints or people within their team moving on. Sadly, by the time that happens, it is usually too late for any of their immediate subordinates whom they have already started to victimise. They always know the formal procedures better than you do, because this kind of person builds their whole career around playing the game to their own advantage. Starting the disciplinary process on dubious grounds before the subordinate can start a formal grievance procedure is straight out of their playbook. So my advice would be along similar lines to fsk's: work on the basis that this job is over, look to the future, but don't burn any bridges unnecessarily with the current employer or anyone else who works there. In addition, if you are one of the victims here but have generally done a decent job and got along with people other than the problem manager, you have probably earned some respect from other people senior to you in the organisation. They might be peers of your manager, whose teams you have worked with along the way with good results. They might be people higher up in your own management chain, who have seen good results prior to the hostile manager taking over (and may have their own concerns about that manager, though if they're professional they probably won't give you any hint of this, they'll only discuss any concerns you raise yourself). These people may be able to give you a useful reference in their official capacity, so you don't need to rely on the current line manager when applying for new jobs. If company policy forbids that, for example because the only permitted official references come from HR and just confirm dates of employment, then perhaps your contacts can at least give you a positive comment on LinkedIn or some other sort of constructive but unofficial endorsement. Also, keep records of everything you legally and practically can. Remember that anything stored on company machines (particularly things like e-mails or any internal performance reviews) can be cut off at the employer's whim, and probably will be cut off without notice the moment the official firing process starts, so if you can get a copy that is under your own control, that is to your advantage. Also make written notes immediately of what was said in any in-person conversions or phone calls that might be relevant to your situation, such as the exact words used that you took to imply the 30 day review was being treated as a formality. You don't necessarily have to ever use any of this stuff. My instinct personally is to fight these kinds of injustice, but as fsk said, that's often a lot of stress with little real upside, and literally everyone I know who has actually been in this position hasn't felt it was worth it. However, if your soon-to-be-former employer tries to come after you thanks to your manager's efforts, or more importantly if once you're gone they try to blame you for any actually illegal things that might have happened, then you want to have a mountain of evidence of the way they have tried to force you out and/or cover things up, and the fact that your own work wasn't to blame and you tried to act reasonably and do the right thing when you became aware of a problem. In short, you can be discreet about it, but always look out for number one in these situations. And finally, keep your chin up. This kind of situation is right up there with hassle moving house or relationship problems in terms of stress and how all-encompassing it can feel, but always remember that the kind of hostile middle manager who causes these problems rarely has nearly as much influence as they like to think they do outside their own little empire. Chances are no-one is really able to give you a black mark across your whole industry or city just because of this, particularly if you can follow the advice above to get favourable endorsements from other senior people and keep a clear record to show that you weren't really the troublemaker. In any case, it's a good idea to reach out to friends and family who aren't involved for support, so your life doesn't become all about this over the next few weeks or months. Good luck.
hackuser 11y ago
> Knowing it's over, do the minimum work. I strongly disagree with this step. Ensure your performance is exceptional, flawless, and that everyone sees it. It's hard to do, hard to keep focus and not slip when everyone else is misbehaving, but it pays off: 1) It keeps your hands clean. Others won't know the inside story of why you were let go; if they see you slacking, they will doubt your character and work ethic and believe it's your fault. If they see exceptional performance they may give you the benefit of the doubt. You want them wondering, 'how could they fire him/her?' 2) It leaves a strong impression with everyone, possibly even your boss, of your work ethic and professionalism: 'Even knowing he/she would be fired, look what he/she did'. A crisis is a chance to show your quality. 3) It keeps your hands clean, which means you can sleep easily in the future. Don't do anything you will question later. Be proud of what you did and that you rose above your manager and the situation. Having been in similar situations, it made a great deal of difference in my self-respect and peace of mind down the road.
- serve_yay 11y ago
  I think this puts too much emphasis on what people will think at the place that is about to fire your ass. If it's coming, vamping won't save you, and it probably doesn't matter much what those people think, in either direction.
  - fsk 11y ago
    I meant things like "don't put in unpaid overtime when you're about to be fired" and "when nobody is looking, scan job ads on your cell phone". You can still do a solid job, but don't be as aggressive as you would be if you planned to work there 2 more years. For example, if you have a choice between doing a 5 minute patch or spending a couple hours refactoring it correctly, just do the 5 minute patch.
    - serve_yay 11y ago
      Yes, that sounds about right to me. It's still very important to do a solid job if one considers oneself a professional.

by fsk 11y ago

baldfat 11y ago

I would counter. Don't get fired. If need be resign, but I would do everything I could to not be fired. Secondly I have thought that I was doing a good job but I was viewed negatively. I later found out that an ounce of criticism or attitude ruined my whole perspective. I had to learn that one comment or one person didn't decide who liked me. I just rolled with the punches and talked to managers and other non-related co-workers if they saw things the same way, but without complaining or seeing myself as a negative fault finding Nancy.

fsk 11y ago
Verbal criticism is one thing. Being put on a performance improvement plan (PIP) is another thing. Most of the time, your boss will only fill out a PIP as a precursor to firing you, because the bureaucracy requires it.
AH4oFVbPT4f8 11y ago
I don't agree with resigning. If you resign and are in the US, you give up the ability to file for unemployment. I would start cutting expenses and start looking for something new until that day comes.
- ErrantX 11y ago
  Does the US allow "constructive dismissal" claims? In the UK, if you feel you are being worked out of a job the official advice is to quit, otherwise any claim of constructive dismissal becomes more complex.
  - Silhouette 11y ago
    I can confirm this can be a serious concern in the UK system. Someone close to me was in a similar situation a little while ago and did start a formal grievance process. Thanks to what seems to have been bad/late professional advice, they missed one of the deadlines for taking things further and consequently that formal process terminated. Around that time, they started taking professional advice from a different source and exploring their options, continuing to work for the employer in the meantime. They subsequently concluded that the job was beyond hope and resigned, IIRC a couple of months later, and lawyers started exchanging letters to try and avoid formal action. As I understand it, just about the first thing the former employer's lawyers did was point out that the former employee had remained in the job for a considerable time after the end of the formal grievance process without (as far as the employer was concerned) taking any further action. They argued this was sufficient evidence that no problems serious enough to be considered constructive dismissal remained at that time, and as it turned out, that was effectively game over. (This matter never went to formal action. Reportedly the advice given to the former employee at that point was that their former employer had a decent chance of winning on that basis, and even if they lost it would cause a lot of time and stress to pursue the matter to its full conclusion with limited benefit likely to result.) YMMV, if you need legal advice talk to a lawyer, etc. Just make sure you get better professional advice than this unfortunate person did, and get second opinions early if anyone advising you seems to be slow to respond or otherwise giving you less than their full support.
  - geoelectric 11y ago
    US is generally at-will(1), so the idea of being "subtly fired" only comes up in unemployment claims, where -sometimes- you can make the case you quit because you had no choice (hours dropped to zero, intentionally untenable working conditions, etc.). But otherwise, there are very few guarantees about the circumstances of being dismissed, and therefore not a lot of room for constructive dismissal type claims. (1) There are exceptions around specific circumstances: explicit contracts, implicit contracts (in some states) by way of publishing firing procedures in employee handbooks, and a requirement (in a very few states, but notably for software, California) for good-faith behavior by employers. PIPs are part of the "reason to dismiss" documentation for that last bit. Still, your usual recourse is collecting unemployment, not anything more drastic.
jacquesm 11y ago
I disagree. If you are doing an ok job you should not be resigning, better to let them fire you otherwise a whole pile of assist won't kick in because it is your decision to quit. It's fine to be fired for the wrong reasons and as an employer I wouldn't hold that against you. Use the 30 days to land another job.

Silhouette 11y ago

I've seen a similar thing happen to several friends and family in recent years. Even if your employer is generally a decent place to work, you can wind up with an immediate line manager who is hostile. This might be through no fault of your own, for example if the manager isn't actually very good themselves and so wants to put together a compliant team so they can take credit for the efforts of others. Keeping around competent but independent types who know what they're doing and might challenge the manager when they make bad calls is a threat to these people. It seems that such managers often do get called out eventually, particularly if they have a pattern of mistreating their immediate subordinates and start to show abnormally high numbers of complaints or people within their team moving on. Sadly, by the time that happens, it is usually too late for any of their immediate subordinates whom they have already started to victimise. They always know the formal procedures better than you do, because this kind of person builds their whole career around playing the game to their own advantage. Starting the disciplinary process on dubious grounds before the subordinate can start a formal grievance procedure is straight out of their playbook. So my advice would be along similar lines to fsk's: work on the basis that this job is over, look to the future, but don't burn any bridges unnecessarily with the current employer or anyone else who works there. In addition, if you are one of the victims here but have generally done a decent job and got along with people other than the problem manager, you have probably earned some respect from other people senior to you in the organisation. They might be peers of your manager, whose teams you have worked with along the way with good results. They might be people higher up in your own management chain, who have seen good results prior to the hostile manager taking over (and may have their own concerns about that manager, though if they're professional they probably won't give you any hint of this, they'll only discuss any concerns you raise yourself). These people may be able to give you a useful reference in their official capacity, so you don't need to rely on the current line manager when applying for new jobs. If company policy forbids that, for example because the only permitted official references come from HR and just confirm dates of employment, then perhaps your contacts can at least give you a positive comment on LinkedIn or some other sort of constructive but unofficial endorsement. Also, keep records of everything you legally and practically can. Remember that anything stored on company machines (particularly things like e-mails or any internal performance reviews) can be cut off at the employer's whim, and probably will be cut off without notice the moment the official firing process starts, so if you can get a copy that is under your own control, that is to your advantage. Also make written notes immediately of what was said in any in-person conversions or phone calls that might be relevant to your situation, such as the exact words used that you took to imply the 30 day review was being treated as a formality. You don't necessarily have to ever use any of this stuff. My instinct personally is to fight these kinds of injustice, but as fsk said, that's often a lot of stress with little real upside, and literally everyone I know who has actually been in this position hasn't felt it was worth it. However, if your soon-to-be-former employer tries to come after you thanks to your manager's efforts, or more importantly if once you're gone they try to blame you for any actually illegal things that might have happened, then you want to have a mountain of evidence of the way they have tried to force you out and/or cover things up, and the fact that your own work wasn't to blame and you tried to act reasonably and do the right thing when you became aware of a problem. In short, you can be discreet about it, but always look out for number one in these situations. And finally, keep your chin up. This kind of situation is right up there with hassle moving house or relationship problems in terms of stress and how all-encompassing it can feel, but always remember that the kind of hostile middle manager who causes these problems rarely has nearly as much influence as they like to think they do outside their own little empire. Chances are no-one is really able to give you a black mark across your whole industry or city just because of this, particularly if you can follow the advice above to get favourable endorsements from other senior people and keep a clear record to show that you weren't really the troublemaker. In any case, it's a good idea to reach out to friends and family who aren't involved for support, so your life doesn't become all about this over the next few weeks or months. Good luck.

hackuser 11y ago

> Knowing it's over, do the minimum work. I strongly disagree with this step. Ensure your performance is exceptional, flawless, and that everyone sees it. It's hard to do, hard to keep focus and not slip when everyone else is misbehaving, but it pays off: 1) It keeps your hands clean. Others won't know the inside story of why you were let go; if they see you slacking, they will doubt your character and work ethic and believe it's your fault. If they see exceptional performance they may give you the benefit of the doubt. You want them wondering, 'how could they fire him/her?' 2) It leaves a strong impression with everyone, possibly even your boss, of your work ethic and professionalism: 'Even knowing he/she would be fired, look what he/she did'. A crisis is a chance to show your quality. 3) It keeps your hands clean, which means you can sleep easily in the future. Don't do anything you will question later. Be proud of what you did and that you rose above your manager and the situation. Having been in similar situations, it made a great deal of difference in my self-respect and peace of mind down the road.

serve_yay 11y ago
I think this puts too much emphasis on what people will think at the place that is about to fire your ass. If it's coming, vamping won't save you, and it probably doesn't matter much what those people think, in either direction.
- fsk 11y ago
  I meant things like "don't put in unpaid overtime when you're about to be fired" and "when nobody is looking, scan job ads on your cell phone". You can still do a solid job, but don't be as aggressive as you would be if you planned to work there 2 more years. For example, if you have a choice between doing a 5 minute patch or spending a couple hours refactoring it correctly, just do the 5 minute patch.
  - serve_yay 11y ago
    Yes, that sounds about right to me. It's still very important to do a solid job if one considers oneself a professional.