4 ms·

Just a reminder that https://www.torproject.org https://www.torproject.org offers a free and open-source unzip-and-run Firefox to use a anonymizing network run

by aw3c2 12y ago

Just a reminder that https://www.torproject.org https://www.torproject.org offers a free and open-source unzip-and-run Firefox to use a anonymizing network run mostly by volunteers. Using Tor to anonymously and privately educate yourself about embarrassing or potentially ostracized problems with yourself is a great use of it. Just remember that you should not ever enter any identifying information while using it. Tor is more than fast enough for every day browsing, heck I use it to watch Youtube without major problems. I also use it to read the news, find recipes or lyrics (or similarly shady web circles) etc. If the other side does not need to know who you are and does not have to synchronize that information into a vast tracking/advertising network, why should you willingly submit it?

andy_ppp 12y ago
If I download Tor I'll end up on one of the governments' lists. Is there a way to download it anonymously :-)
- plausibility 12y ago
  You can use GetTor[1] to download it via email. If you send an email to gettor@torproject.org with the body content `windows`, `linux` or `osx`, they send you a reply with a download link to Dropbox. Then you need to verify the integrity using information they provide on their site. [1] https://www.torproject.org/projects/gettor.html https://www.torproject.org/projects/gettor.html
- unhammer 12y ago
  Perhaps, but it might be hard to use Tor without said government knowing that you're using Tor. If someone can see your IP connecting to torproject's IP, they can surely also see your IP connecting to a known entry node. On the other hand, it irks me that people should have to be afraid of wanting privacy. For my own part, I use Tor partly as "civil obstinacy" – if we do not exercise a right, we risk losing it. I feel it's wrong to target someone simply for using Tor / wanting privacy, and I think it should ideally be considered more normal.
- nnq 12y ago
  That's one more reason to also convince your coworkers, acquaintances, friends etc. to download and try it, even if you know they probably won't need it :) The longer the lists, the harder it will be for anyone to be singled out from those lists and the lesser information the fact that we're on them will provide. ...the best place to hide is in a crowd, and the bigger the crowd the better :)
- dredmorbius 12y ago
  You're already on the lists. If you don't use Tor, you're on the list and they've got ready access to your browsing data and metadata. If you do use Tor, you're only on the list, and their workfactor for accessing your data and metadata is far higher. Plus you're providing more cover for those who have strongly urgent needs for similar levels of protection.
- aw3c2 12y ago
  You just talked to me. I run a Tor node so you are suspicious by acquaintance. Also you mentioned the selectors "government list", "anonymity" and "Tor". There is nothing to lose by downloading Tor now.
dzhiurgis 12y ago
Isn't it ironic that to check your symptoms you have you use the same technology that you buy your cocaine with?
- noir_lord 12y ago
  That's more tragic but I know what you mean. "It has been said that capitalism is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time" (paraphrasing a speech Churchill gave about democracy).
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
cabirum 12y ago
Why won't any browser's Incognito/InPrivate/Porn mode be enough? You need to prevent associating search queries with your logged in social accounts, Tor is kinda overkill for that.
- omphalos 12y ago
  There are a lot of ways that you can still be easily tracked in incognito mode such as browser fingerprints, supercookies, and WebRTC to name a few.
- dredmorbius 12y ago
  IP tracking, browser fingerprinting, "supercookies", canvas fingerprinting, and other hacks are still a thing. http://www.browserleaks.com/canvas http://www.browserleaks.com/canvas http://www.techopedia.com/definition/27310/super-cookie http://www.techopedia.com/definition/27310/super-cookie https://panopticlick.eff.org/ https://panopticlick.eff.org/
- j13z 12y ago
  > You need to prevent associating search queries with your logged in social accounts Every 3rd party HTTP request can already be used to track you -- being logged into a social account just makes the tracking way easier for them. The prominent example to trigger a 3rd party request is the 1px GIF. Incognito mode won’t help you in this case.
dredmorbius 12y ago
My biggest single problem using Tor is that far too many sites either block exit nodes outright or subject them to (frankly, understandable) increased levels of scruitany. I use and run a Tor proxy (_not_ an exit node, mind), but notably Craigslist tends to block pretty much _all_ Tor traffic, and sites employing Cloudflare's DDoS protection present a Javascript-only CAPTCHA. Given that one of my primary Tor browsers is a console-only browser without JS support, that does little for me. Google despite other problems (below) actually Does The Right Thing and presents an image which I can fetch and verify, though many of the graphics are exceptionally difficult to interpret. I've documented my own other hassles accessing Google via Tor (G+, Gmail, etc.) in "How to kill your Google account: Access it via Tor": https://www.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/2w618r/how_to_kill_your_google_account_access_it_via_tor/ https://www.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/2w618r/how_to_... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9060922 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9060922 (The problems were compounded by Google's account recovery and verification procedures, though I ultimately did recover control thanks in no small part to intercession by Google's Yontan Zunger, for which I remain grateful). Other options include the /etc/hosts file mentioned above (I've extended my own set with 62,000+ entries from a set of blockfiles used by the uMatrix Chrome extension). There's also Privoxy (though supporting _both_ Tor and non-Tor variants might be useful), and various browser extensions including Ghostery, Privacy Badger, AdBlock+, uMatrix, ScriptSave/NoScript, etc. It's getting more than slightly tedious and is eroding trust in the Web generally. The other area of significant interest is seeing work toward reputation systems which are compatible with Tor use. There are two I'm aware of, FAUST and "Fair Anonymity", though I've seen little discussion or adoption of these anywhere. FAUST: https://gnunet.org/node/1704 https://gnunet.org/node/1704 "Fair Anonymity for the Tor Network" http://arxiv.org/pdf/1412.4707v1.pdf http://arxiv.org/pdf/1412.4707v1.pdf Briefly discussed here: https://www.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/30gszt/the_back_off_peer_reputation_relationship_model/ https://www.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/30gszt/the_bac...
steamy 12y ago
Wasn't TOR run by the CIA or the NSA before?

by aw3c2 12y ago

andy_ppp 12y ago

If I download Tor I'll end up on one of the governments' lists. Is there a way to download it anonymously :-)

plausibility 12y ago
You can use GetTor[1] to download it via email. If you send an email to gettor@torproject.org with the body content `windows`, `linux` or `osx`, they send you a reply with a download link to Dropbox. Then you need to verify the integrity using information they provide on their site. [1] https://www.torproject.org/projects/gettor.html https://www.torproject.org/projects/gettor.html
unhammer 12y ago
Perhaps, but it might be hard to use Tor without said government knowing that you're using Tor. If someone can see your IP connecting to torproject's IP, they can surely also see your IP connecting to a known entry node. On the other hand, it irks me that people should have to be afraid of wanting privacy. For my own part, I use Tor partly as "civil obstinacy" – if we do not exercise a right, we risk losing it. I feel it's wrong to target someone simply for using Tor / wanting privacy, and I think it should ideally be considered more normal.
nnq 12y ago
That's one more reason to also convince your coworkers, acquaintances, friends etc. to download and try it, even if you know they probably won't need it :) The longer the lists, the harder it will be for anyone to be singled out from those lists and the lesser information the fact that we're on them will provide. ...the best place to hide is in a crowd, and the bigger the crowd the better :)
dredmorbius 12y ago
You're already on the lists. If you don't use Tor, you're on the list and they've got ready access to your browsing data and metadata. If you do use Tor, you're only on the list, and their workfactor for accessing your data and metadata is far higher. Plus you're providing more cover for those who have strongly urgent needs for similar levels of protection.
aw3c2 12y ago
You just talked to me. I run a Tor node so you are suspicious by acquaintance. Also you mentioned the selectors "government list", "anonymity" and "Tor". There is nothing to lose by downloading Tor now.

dzhiurgis 12y ago

Isn't it ironic that to check your symptoms you have you use the same technology that you buy your cocaine with?

noir_lord 12y ago
That's more tragic but I know what you mean. "It has been said that capitalism is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time" (paraphrasing a speech Churchill gave about democracy).
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]

cabirum 12y ago

Why won't any browser's Incognito/InPrivate/Porn mode be enough? You need to prevent associating search queries with your logged in social accounts, Tor is kinda overkill for that.

omphalos 12y ago
There are a lot of ways that you can still be easily tracked in incognito mode such as browser fingerprints, supercookies, and WebRTC to name a few.
dredmorbius 12y ago
IP tracking, browser fingerprinting, "supercookies", canvas fingerprinting, and other hacks are still a thing. http://www.browserleaks.com/canvas http://www.browserleaks.com/canvas http://www.techopedia.com/definition/27310/super-cookie http://www.techopedia.com/definition/27310/super-cookie https://panopticlick.eff.org/ https://panopticlick.eff.org/
j13z 12y ago
> You need to prevent associating search queries with your logged in social accounts Every 3rd party HTTP request can already be used to track you -- being logged into a social account just makes the tracking way easier for them. The prominent example to trigger a 3rd party request is the 1px GIF. Incognito mode won’t help you in this case.

dredmorbius 12y ago

My biggest single problem using Tor is that far too many sites either block exit nodes outright or subject them to (frankly, understandable) increased levels of scruitany. I use and run a Tor proxy (_not_ an exit node, mind), but notably Craigslist tends to block pretty much _all_ Tor traffic, and sites employing Cloudflare's DDoS protection present a Javascript-only CAPTCHA. Given that one of my primary Tor browsers is a console-only browser without JS support, that does little for me. Google despite other problems (below) actually Does The Right Thing and presents an image which I can fetch and verify, though many of the graphics are exceptionally difficult to interpret. I've documented my own other hassles accessing Google via Tor (G+, Gmail, etc.) in "How to kill your Google account: Access it via Tor": https://www.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/2w618r/how_to_kill_your_google_account_access_it_via_tor/ https://www.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/2w618r/how_to_... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9060922 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9060922 (The problems were compounded by Google's account recovery and verification procedures, though I ultimately did recover control thanks in no small part to intercession by Google's Yontan Zunger, for which I remain grateful). Other options include the /etc/hosts file mentioned above (I've extended my own set with 62,000+ entries from a set of blockfiles used by the uMatrix Chrome extension). There's also Privoxy (though supporting _both_ Tor and non-Tor variants might be useful), and various browser extensions including Ghostery, Privacy Badger, AdBlock+, uMatrix, ScriptSave/NoScript, etc. It's getting more than slightly tedious and is eroding trust in the Web generally. The other area of significant interest is seeing work toward reputation systems which are compatible with Tor use. There are two I'm aware of, FAUST and "Fair Anonymity", though I've seen little discussion or adoption of these anywhere. FAUST: https://gnunet.org/node/1704 https://gnunet.org/node/1704 "Fair Anonymity for the Tor Network" http://arxiv.org/pdf/1412.4707v1.pdf http://arxiv.org/pdf/1412.4707v1.pdf Briefly discussed here: https://www.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/30gszt/the_back_off_peer_reputation_relationship_model/ https://www.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/30gszt/the_bac...

steamy 12y ago

Wasn't TOR run by the CIA or the NSA before?