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Do you really want me to just start linking comments of the users I named? I thought I'd leave that rather simple exercise to you, so I wouldn't be accused of c

by pen2l 12y ago

Do you really want me to just start linking comments of the users I named? I thought I'd leave that rather simple exercise to you, so I wouldn't be accused of cherry-picking.

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
pen2l 12y ago
edit: DanBC asked for proof, but has deleted the comment in which he asked for proof. This was my reply to that. Okay. Let's agree on one assumption: largely, comments on HN will be voted upon fairly. That is to say, trollish comments will be downvoted (and I'm sure you know of the basics, that heavily downvoted comments will sink down). And going further in this continuum, HN voters are intelligent enough to distinguish between good-faith, substantive posts from content-free, low-substance posts -- and vote as such. By this logic, eli's more substantive posts in a certain comment thread should be higher than its sibling-level posts. But they're consistently not. They're either at the very absolute end, or one above the absolute end. Examples: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9430757 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9430757 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9421905 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9421905 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9402551 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9402551 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9370954 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9370954 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9371219 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9371219 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9358256 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9358256 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9346313 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9346313 Do you really want me to keep going? Because this is too easy. All I'm doing is going in his comment history page, picking out comments that are substantive, good-faith, clearly non-trollish, clearly non-partisan... and I assume they should be ranked above comments that are better than his by any reasonable criteria, and consistently you find they're either not or only barely above the negatively-scored comments. You can do this exercise for any other user on rankban.
- nkurz 12y ago
  I feel I'm fairly impartial here, as I regularly vote up comments by members that you list as victims. I looked at all the posts you linked, and did not see any evidence for the pattern that you claim. This doesn't mean you are wrong, but I think it at least means it isn't as obvious as you feel it is. > Let's agree on one assumption: largely, comments > on HN will be voted upon fairly. I see no strong reason to make that assumption, and further doubt the existence of a universally agreed upon definition of "fairly". I think the simpler explanation is that some comments that you (and I) think are good are downvoted by others who think they are bad. Perhaps some of these are "vendetta" votes against the individual, but I think most downvotes are based on the content and tone of each individual comment. While there are sometimes extreme short-term swings to the negative, I think the process tends to balance out with extra upvotes for comments the majority considers (rightly or wrongly) unfairly grayed out. But in my opinion, the result is majority rule, rather than anything universal or conspiratorial.
  - pen2l 12y ago
    So, after I made that comment, something pretty fantastic happened: for the links I provided, the rankings changed pretty significantly. Eli's comments were mostly at the very bottom for the links, now they are at the top. I was going to make an edit note pointing out this change since having made my comment, but chose not to. Trust me, the rankban mechanisms exist, some really smart users did some tests to confirm it, and a lot of people are in the know by now. We had this dispute about hellbans, shadowbans, and slowbans, that was much easier to prove. Rankban has been studied pretty extensively at this point, and everyone has been convinced of it. The current effort is to study the downvoteban and policy changes.
    - bjourne 12y ago
      Why do you assume that? It could just as easily be someone holding a grudge against the user whose comments to you link to and habitually downvotes him or her. That the comments got upvotes after you linked to them isn't strange either; you drawn attention to that they were unfairly downvoted so people want to correct that.

by pen2l 12y ago

Do you really want me to just start linking comments of the users I named? I thought I'd leave that rather simple exercise to you, so I wouldn't be accused of cherry-picking.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

pen2l 12y ago

edit: DanBC asked for proof, but has deleted the comment in which he asked for proof. This was my reply to that. Okay. Let's agree on one assumption: largely, comments on HN will be voted upon fairly. That is to say, trollish comments will be downvoted (and I'm sure you know of the basics, that heavily downvoted comments will sink down). And going further in this continuum, HN voters are intelligent enough to distinguish between good-faith, substantive posts from content-free, low-substance posts -- and vote as such. By this logic, eli's more substantive posts in a certain comment thread should be higher than its sibling-level posts. But they're consistently not. They're either at the very absolute end, or one above the absolute end. Examples: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9430757 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9430757 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9421905 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9421905 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9402551 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9402551 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9370954 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9370954 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9371219 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9371219 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9358256 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9358256 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9346313 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9346313 Do you really want me to keep going? Because this is too easy. All I'm doing is going in his comment history page, picking out comments that are substantive, good-faith, clearly non-trollish, clearly non-partisan... and I assume they should be ranked above comments that are better than his by any reasonable criteria, and consistently you find they're either not or only barely above the negatively-scored comments. You can do this exercise for any other user on rankban.

nkurz 12y ago
I feel I'm fairly impartial here, as I regularly vote up comments by members that you list as victims. I looked at all the posts you linked, and did not see any evidence for the pattern that you claim. This doesn't mean you are wrong, but I think it at least means it isn't as obvious as you feel it is. > Let's agree on one assumption: largely, comments > on HN will be voted upon fairly. I see no strong reason to make that assumption, and further doubt the existence of a universally agreed upon definition of "fairly". I think the simpler explanation is that some comments that you (and I) think are good are downvoted by others who think they are bad. Perhaps some of these are "vendetta" votes against the individual, but I think most downvotes are based on the content and tone of each individual comment. While there are sometimes extreme short-term swings to the negative, I think the process tends to balance out with extra upvotes for comments the majority considers (rightly or wrongly) unfairly grayed out. But in my opinion, the result is majority rule, rather than anything universal or conspiratorial.
- pen2l 12y ago
  So, after I made that comment, something pretty fantastic happened: for the links I provided, the rankings changed pretty significantly. Eli's comments were mostly at the very bottom for the links, now they are at the top. I was going to make an edit note pointing out this change since having made my comment, but chose not to. Trust me, the rankban mechanisms exist, some really smart users did some tests to confirm it, and a lot of people are in the know by now. We had this dispute about hellbans, shadowbans, and slowbans, that was much easier to prove. Rankban has been studied pretty extensively at this point, and everyone has been convinced of it. The current effort is to study the downvoteban and policy changes.
  - bjourne 12y ago
    Why do you assume that? It could just as easily be someone holding a grudge against the user whose comments to you link to and habitually downvotes him or her. That the comments got upvotes after you linked to them isn't strange either; you drawn attention to that they were unfairly downvoted so people want to correct that.