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What if it actually is dang/HN that's responsible for these downvotes? I think the downvoting is a new version of "rankbanning" mechanism. Users that are anti-i

by pen2l 12y ago

What if it actually is dang/HN that's responsible for these downvotes? I think the downvoting is a new version of "rankbanning" mechanism. Users that are anti-immigration reform are rankbanned on HN (this means that no matter the number of votes on the post, their comments fall down in the page. Users like eli_gottlieb, larrys, etc. are rankbanned for these various reasons; some people detected this and called HN on it, and I think their response is to make a new system which auto-downvotes users... then it makes it seem like their comments are organically falling down the page, rather than being targeted by rankbans.)

xtrumanx 12y ago
Got a link to the call-out regarding the rankbanning? I've never heard of that happening.
- TheLoneWolfling 12y ago
  https://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2013/11/03/heres-why-paul-graham-probably-owes-me-an-apology/ https://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2013/11/03/heres-why-pa...
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
- pen2l 12y ago
  See blogpost by michaelochurch where he proves this. Examples of users currently on rankban include larrys, eli_gottlieb, thinkcomp, DanielBMarkham, etc. This is verifiable quite easily if you go into the comment history of these users. Take eli_gottlieb, for example. Sure, he often voices quasi-Marxist views, but why do his posts on technical things fall down so rapidly? Even below heavily downvoted trolls? Why did his post in 'Who wants to be hired?' so heavily sink to the very bottom? Lastly, some users who have engaged with HN moderators via email were taken off of rankbans, so they have never denied that these rankban mechanisms exist, they generally remain silent when this is brought up, and try to force the conversation surrounding it to a private medium ("please email us at support@ycombinator.com", etc.)
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
    - pen2l 12y ago
      Do you really want me to just start linking comments of the users I named? I thought I'd leave that rather simple exercise to you, so I wouldn't be accused of cherry-picking.
      - deleted 12y ago
        [deleted]
      - pen2l 12y ago
        edit: DanBC asked for proof, but has deleted the comment in which he asked for proof. This was my reply to that. Okay. Let's agree on one assumption: largely, comments on HN will be voted upon fairly. That is to say, trollish comments will be downvoted (and I'm sure you know of the basics, that heavily downvoted comments will sink down). And going further in this continuum, HN voters are intelligent enough to distinguish between good-faith, substantive posts from content-free, low-substance posts -- and vote as such. By this logic, eli's more substantive posts in a certain comment thread should be higher than its sibling-level posts. But they're consistently not. They're either at the very absolute end, or one above the absolute end. Examples: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9430757 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9430757 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9421905 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9421905 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9402551 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9402551 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9370954 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9370954 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9371219 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9371219 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9358256 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9358256 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9346313 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9346313 Do you really want me to keep going? Because this is too easy. All I'm doing is going in his comment history page, picking out comments that are substantive, good-faith, clearly non-trollish, clearly non-partisan... and I assume they should be ranked above comments that are better than his by any reasonable criteria, and consistently you find they're either not or only barely above the negatively-scored comments. You can do this exercise for any other user on rankban.
Xophmeister 12y ago
What does the automatic downvoting of comments, regardless of their content, from marked users accomplish? Especially if rogue users are marked by virtue of their controversial opinions, rather than genuine rogue users (spammers, abusive commenters, etc.) That is, presuming this happens at all...
benologist 12y ago
larrys has 2 negative-rated comments in the last 59 days (where I stopped looking at more pages), are you sure there really is a pattern? eli_gottlieb looks like he takes contentious stances a bit but his are mostly positive too. If there is a pattern what makes you think it's dang vs some other group pushing the opposite viewpoint? I've probably emailed him a couple dozen times with reports of hinky stuff and never felt like he was protecting anything, I would give him the benefit of the doubt and ask him what's happening.
brudgers 12y ago
If the comments are consistently reflect some political position then the downvotes are not content independent. Moreover irrespective of what the political position is, there are people, including myself, who generally find political partisanship in HN comments detrimental to the community in most cases. If as you postulate, there is an identifiable faction with a political agenda, then either user, moderator or software intervention would hardly be surprising. There are plenty of places on the internet where promoting a political agenda is considered fair sport. HN, for better or worse, is not among them. Anyway, if it is Dang, then you can live with it or find someplace else for politically partisan posting.
eli_gottlieb 12y ago
Immigration reform? What's that supposed to mean? Huh, and here I just thought I took too many downvotes for expressing Marxist views on a site where everyone's supposed to want to be an entrepreneur (ie: petite bourgeois).

by pen2l 12y ago

xtrumanx 12y ago

Got a link to the call-out regarding the rankbanning? I've never heard of that happening.

TheLoneWolfling 12y ago
https://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2013/11/03/heres-why-paul-graham-probably-owes-me-an-apology/ https://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2013/11/03/heres-why-pa...

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

pen2l 12y ago
See blogpost by michaelochurch where he proves this. Examples of users currently on rankban include larrys, eli_gottlieb, thinkcomp, DanielBMarkham, etc. This is verifiable quite easily if you go into the comment history of these users. Take eli_gottlieb, for example. Sure, he often voices quasi-Marxist views, but why do his posts on technical things fall down so rapidly? Even below heavily downvoted trolls? Why did his post in 'Who wants to be hired?' so heavily sink to the very bottom? Lastly, some users who have engaged with HN moderators via email were taken off of rankbans, so they have never denied that these rankban mechanisms exist, they generally remain silent when this is brought up, and try to force the conversation surrounding it to a private medium ("please email us at support@ycombinator.com", etc.)
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
  - pen2l 12y ago
    Do you really want me to just start linking comments of the users I named? I thought I'd leave that rather simple exercise to you, so I wouldn't be accused of cherry-picking.
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
    - pen2l 12y ago
      edit: DanBC asked for proof, but has deleted the comment in which he asked for proof. This was my reply to that. Okay. Let's agree on one assumption: largely, comments on HN will be voted upon fairly. That is to say, trollish comments will be downvoted (and I'm sure you know of the basics, that heavily downvoted comments will sink down). And going further in this continuum, HN voters are intelligent enough to distinguish between good-faith, substantive posts from content-free, low-substance posts -- and vote as such. By this logic, eli's more substantive posts in a certain comment thread should be higher than its sibling-level posts. But they're consistently not. They're either at the very absolute end, or one above the absolute end. Examples: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9430757 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9430757 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9421905 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9421905 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9402551 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9402551 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9370954 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9370954 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9371219 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9371219 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9358256 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9358256 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9346313 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9346313 Do you really want me to keep going? Because this is too easy. All I'm doing is going in his comment history page, picking out comments that are substantive, good-faith, clearly non-trollish, clearly non-partisan... and I assume they should be ranked above comments that are better than his by any reasonable criteria, and consistently you find they're either not or only barely above the negatively-scored comments. You can do this exercise for any other user on rankban.

Xophmeister 12y ago

What does the automatic downvoting of comments, regardless of their content, from marked users accomplish? Especially if rogue users are marked by virtue of their controversial opinions, rather than genuine rogue users (spammers, abusive commenters, etc.) That is, presuming this happens at all...

benologist 12y ago

larrys has 2 negative-rated comments in the last 59 days (where I stopped looking at more pages), are you sure there really is a pattern? eli_gottlieb looks like he takes contentious stances a bit but his are mostly positive too. If there is a pattern what makes you think it's dang vs some other group pushing the opposite viewpoint? I've probably emailed him a couple dozen times with reports of hinky stuff and never felt like he was protecting anything, I would give him the benefit of the doubt and ask him what's happening.

brudgers 12y ago

If the comments are consistently reflect some political position then the downvotes are not content independent. Moreover irrespective of what the political position is, there are people, including myself, who generally find political partisanship in HN comments detrimental to the community in most cases. If as you postulate, there is an identifiable faction with a political agenda, then either user, moderator or software intervention would hardly be surprising. There are plenty of places on the internet where promoting a political agenda is considered fair sport. HN, for better or worse, is not among them. Anyway, if it is Dang, then you can live with it or find someplace else for politically partisan posting.

eli_gottlieb 12y ago

Immigration reform? What's that supposed to mean? Huh, and here I just thought I took too many downvotes for expressing Marxist views on a site where everyone's supposed to want to be an entrepreneur (ie: petite bourgeois).