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As an AWS user, I switched from Amazon Linux to Ubuntu 14.04 because it's easy to replicate the development environment. No performance/stability issues so far

by chdir 11y ago

As an AWS user, I switched from Amazon Linux to Ubuntu 14.04 because it's easy to replicate the development environment. No performance/stability issues so far however I'm curious if Debian 8 has an edge over Ubuntu 14.04 for a medium sized website on AWS. My only gripe with Ubuntu is that apt-get doesn't have the latest stables packages (like Amazon Linux does). I'm guessing it would be the same with Debian.

chimeracoder 11y ago
> My only gripe with Ubuntu is that apt-get doesn't have the latest stables packages (like Amazon Linux does). I'm guessing it would be the same with Debian. Depends on your definition of "stable". Since distros vary widely on what they consider to be "stable", comparing various distros' stable releases is like comparing processors by raw GHz values or dSLRs by megapixels alone. Debian Stable is the last place to go if you want very recent builds of packages, but the first place to go if you want absolute, rock-solid stability. Debian Sid (unstable) has the latest versions of each of the packages, though Debian's guidelines are strict enough that testing and sid are oftentimes more stable than the "stable" releases of other distros. My advice (and this is what I do): Run Debian stable (Jessie, as of today) as a base image, and use an appropriate container for applications that require more up-to-date applications. Best of both worlds.
- macattacke 11y ago
  Actually they call it stable because it doesn't change. It achieves a reputation of stability because of the development process and not shipping until bugs are eliminated.
theg2 11y ago
Debian does tend to run behind and prefer more stable and "mature" releases so I doubt you'll find what you're looking for with 8.
- kasabali 11y ago
  I don't know Amazon Linux packages but Debian 8 packages are newer than Ubuntu 14.04 ones, so he might find what he's looking for unless he always wants newest versions.
- yebyen 11y ago
  On the other hand, sid/unstable tends to have the latest releases of upstream software (golang, docker, redis? ... I can't think of any great examples), but I've found that Ubuntu's packaged versions of upstream software often lags behind by quite a distance, even in the latest branch (eg. in next, unreleased, say 15.10 tree). I can't say why that is, but I've seen it on multiple occasions. Usually you can resolve this in Ubuntu with a PPA.
  - kasabali 11y ago
    > I can't say why that is, but I've seen it on multiple occasions. Because Ubuntu releases are, well, releases. Early in the release cycle, they sync from Debian, they package their own things, then freeze the versions and release. They don't change versions of most packages in released! releases. Debian unstable on the other hand, has no concept of a release, so maintainers upload new versions of packages into unstable pretty much all the time (except freeze time). So what you've seen is actually the norm, not exception.
    - yebyen 11y ago
      What you're saying makes sense, except that I would expect 15.10 to always be more current than it is before 2015-10 arrives. In reality, it's often not more current than the released version. If there is a new version of a package in sid, why isn't it in the "bleeding edge" ubuntu next-release? (I'm sure it's a good reason) In Debian, actually, I am pretty sure there's never really a freeze in unstable as you mention. They make a new stable release from the testing branch some time (a good long while) after the freeze is called, then for a brief period you have only stable and unstable (and oldstable), and later on a new testing branch is created (not yet frozen) with whatever packages from unstable meet the criteria to go into testing. When testing is not frozen, that means "the package has been in unstable for 2 weeks without any reported bugs" or something like that. When they're getting ready for a new release, they freeze testing, and then the criteria to get your package in for the next release gets more stringent (is it, bugfixes only? security issues only? I'm not sure, but it's probably even stricter than I think.)
stephenr 11y ago
It probably depends what packages you're specifically looking for newer versions of. For "common" web server setups (i.e. LAMP or similar), using Debian stable plus the Percona and Dotdeb repos will give you a rock solid OS with more recent versions of things like PHP, Redis, and MySQL/Percona Server. If you can identify the specific packages (i.e. php? nodejs? mysql? redis? etc) that you found outdated in Ubuntu it will be much easier to make a suggestion about how appropriate Debian stable will be for you.
vbernat 11y ago
The definition of "stable" for Debian means that the version number of every piece of software is frozen. Only security fixes (through security uploads) and critical fixes (through point releases) can get into the distribution if they are backported to work with the version currently in Debian. You don't get the latest software but you are ensured that an upgrade won't break anything. Since the freeze is around 6 months, this means you get 6 months old software when Debian is released. There are some exceptions, like browsers that are too difficult to maintain at the same version. We believe most people like this definition. This can be frustrating when you need the latest version of nginx but you are happy that upgrading some basic stuff won't break anything on your system: no deprecated configuration option in X, no command-line flag that doesn't exist anymore in Y. All should work exactly as before, with fewer security holes and bugs at each upgrade. However, if you really want to have the latest version of a selected set of software, have a look at the official Debian backports. This is a great strength of Debian over Ubuntu (where backports are almost inexistant with the notable exception of the kernels): there are many backported packages. For example, if you need a more recent version of nginx and you are running Debian Wheezy, you'll get nginx 1.2.1. If you need something more recent (because you want to get SPDY), you can get nginx 1.6.2 through backports. See here: https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/nginx https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/nginx. Backports are packaged from the versions that will be in the next Debian release. So, they should keep the same quality than the packages which are currently in Debian. This is a great strength over random PPA. Some of them are maintained by skillful people, some others are not. If you trust Debian for its packages, the backports are made by Debian Developers too. For nginx, there is no 1.8 because backports are taken from the next release. As this next release is currently frozen, the version proposed in backports is still 1.6.2. Using a Debian Stable with backports should allow you to get what you want: stability for most packages but latest releases (and latest bugs/changes) for a selection of packages.

by chdir 11y ago

chimeracoder 11y ago

> My only gripe with Ubuntu is that apt-get doesn't have the latest stables packages (like Amazon Linux does). I'm guessing it would be the same with Debian. Depends on your definition of "stable". Since distros vary widely on what they consider to be "stable", comparing various distros' stable releases is like comparing processors by raw GHz values or dSLRs by megapixels alone. Debian Stable is the last place to go if you want very recent builds of packages, but the first place to go if you want absolute, rock-solid stability. Debian Sid (unstable) has the latest versions of each of the packages, though Debian's guidelines are strict enough that testing and sid are oftentimes more stable than the "stable" releases of other distros. My advice (and this is what I do): Run Debian stable (Jessie, as of today) as a base image, and use an appropriate container for applications that require more up-to-date applications. Best of both worlds.

macattacke 11y ago
Actually they call it stable because it doesn't change. It achieves a reputation of stability because of the development process and not shipping until bugs are eliminated.

theg2 11y ago

Debian does tend to run behind and prefer more stable and "mature" releases so I doubt you'll find what you're looking for with 8.

kasabali 11y ago
I don't know Amazon Linux packages but Debian 8 packages are newer than Ubuntu 14.04 ones, so he might find what he's looking for unless he always wants newest versions.
yebyen 11y ago
On the other hand, sid/unstable tends to have the latest releases of upstream software (golang, docker, redis? ... I can't think of any great examples), but I've found that Ubuntu's packaged versions of upstream software often lags behind by quite a distance, even in the latest branch (eg. in next, unreleased, say 15.10 tree). I can't say why that is, but I've seen it on multiple occasions. Usually you can resolve this in Ubuntu with a PPA.
- kasabali 11y ago
  > I can't say why that is, but I've seen it on multiple occasions. Because Ubuntu releases are, well, releases. Early in the release cycle, they sync from Debian, they package their own things, then freeze the versions and release. They don't change versions of most packages in released! releases. Debian unstable on the other hand, has no concept of a release, so maintainers upload new versions of packages into unstable pretty much all the time (except freeze time). So what you've seen is actually the norm, not exception.
  - yebyen 11y ago
    What you're saying makes sense, except that I would expect 15.10 to always be more current than it is before 2015-10 arrives. In reality, it's often not more current than the released version. If there is a new version of a package in sid, why isn't it in the "bleeding edge" ubuntu next-release? (I'm sure it's a good reason) In Debian, actually, I am pretty sure there's never really a freeze in unstable as you mention. They make a new stable release from the testing branch some time (a good long while) after the freeze is called, then for a brief period you have only stable and unstable (and oldstable), and later on a new testing branch is created (not yet frozen) with whatever packages from unstable meet the criteria to go into testing. When testing is not frozen, that means "the package has been in unstable for 2 weeks without any reported bugs" or something like that. When they're getting ready for a new release, they freeze testing, and then the criteria to get your package in for the next release gets more stringent (is it, bugfixes only? security issues only? I'm not sure, but it's probably even stricter than I think.)

stephenr 11y ago

It probably depends what packages you're specifically looking for newer versions of. For "common" web server setups (i.e. LAMP or similar), using Debian stable plus the Percona and Dotdeb repos will give you a rock solid OS with more recent versions of things like PHP, Redis, and MySQL/Percona Server. If you can identify the specific packages (i.e. php? nodejs? mysql? redis? etc) that you found outdated in Ubuntu it will be much easier to make a suggestion about how appropriate Debian stable will be for you.

vbernat 11y ago

The definition of "stable" for Debian means that the version number of every piece of software is frozen. Only security fixes (through security uploads) and critical fixes (through point releases) can get into the distribution if they are backported to work with the version currently in Debian. You don't get the latest software but you are ensured that an upgrade won't break anything. Since the freeze is around 6 months, this means you get 6 months old software when Debian is released. There are some exceptions, like browsers that are too difficult to maintain at the same version. We believe most people like this definition. This can be frustrating when you need the latest version of nginx but you are happy that upgrading some basic stuff won't break anything on your system: no deprecated configuration option in X, no command-line flag that doesn't exist anymore in Y. All should work exactly as before, with fewer security holes and bugs at each upgrade. However, if you really want to have the latest version of a selected set of software, have a look at the official Debian backports. This is a great strength of Debian over Ubuntu (where backports are almost inexistant with the notable exception of the kernels): there are many backported packages. For example, if you need a more recent version of nginx and you are running Debian Wheezy, you'll get nginx 1.2.1. If you need something more recent (because you want to get SPDY), you can get nginx 1.6.2 through backports. See here: https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/nginx https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/nginx. Backports are packaged from the versions that will be in the next Debian release. So, they should keep the same quality than the packages which are currently in Debian. This is a great strength over random PPA. Some of them are maintained by skillful people, some others are not. If you trust Debian for its packages, the backports are made by Debian Developers too. For nginx, there is no 1.8 because backports are taken from the next release. As this next release is currently frozen, the version proposed in backports is still 1.6.2. Using a Debian Stable with backports should allow you to get what you want: stability for most packages but latest releases (and latest bugs/changes) for a selection of packages.