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I've tried various ThinkPads, but I keep coming back to macs. Linux on ThinkPads (or any laptop) is hit-and-miss. Sometimes, things work perfectly. Sometimes, t

by ggreer 12y ago

I've tried various ThinkPads, but I keep coming back to macs. Linux on ThinkPads (or any laptop) is hit-and-miss. Sometimes, things work perfectly. Sometimes, they don't. I really don't like spending time messing with drivers or config files to get my wifi, bluetooth, hibernate, power saving, etc working. I don't want to carefully research hardware to ensure it's supported. I just want to use my computer, and I'm willing to throw money at the problem instead of time. And over the past decade, Apple's hardware has gotten really good. Their trackpads have always been nice, but the new force touch version is the indisputable best. Current Apple laptops contain many clever design decisions that most of us don't explicitly notice, but together make the machine feel first-rate. This is unlike my ThinkPad x140e, which has idiotic design galore. The microphone is placed in the palm rest, making it nearly useless. Typing makes speech inaudible. The keyboard lacks an LED for caps lock, yet there are annoying always-on LEDs in in the palm rest and lid. Instead of gradually ramping fan speeds up and down, it switches between discrete levels, causing unnecessary distraction. And while it's one of Lenovo's smallest laptops, it's comically huge and heavy compared to my MacBook.[1] Obviously, these two machines are apples and oranges. They target different users and price ranges. It is unfair to compare them. Still, it's frustrating to see so many bone-headed design choices in the ThinkPad. Just a little more thought and testing could have made it a much better machine. Sadly, this is true even for Lenovo's most expensive models. The X1 Carbon comes with useless stickers on the palm rest, and peeling them off leaves a residue that requires solvents to remove. These annoyances may be small, but they add-up to give an impression of tackiness. 1. http://geoff.greer.fm/photos/pics/DSC_0460.jpg http://geoff.greer.fm/photos/pics/DSC_0460.jpg

pareidolia 12y ago
Yes, I would agree about the X140e. (The 'e' stands for economy == cheap) The problem is that Lenovo calls just about anything a Thinkpad these days. The inner circle is what you find in this list. You will see that the X1_0es are not listed. I have an X120e, and I bought it since it was the absolute cheapest I could find that still had some "Thinkpadness" to it. I can see that the model line went downhill from there.
- ggreer 12y ago
  I agree that the X140e is the least ThinkPad-y of the recent ThinkPads. I didn't mean to single it out, but it's the ThinkPad I've used the most. I've also tried the 2nd-gen X1 Carbon and the X230. Those had similar design flaws. If anything, the X1 Carbon was worse. Seriously, the keyboard was a nightmare.[1] Like the X140e, the X230's fan ramped up/down in discrete increments instead of continuously varying. The fingerprint reader was useless. One particularly annoying bug in the X230 was its headphone jack. I don't know what kind of worthless shielding it used, but I could hear the SSD and CPU working. That sort of noise is literally unheard of in macs from the same period. I've used netbooks with better audio quality. Again, it's a ton of small things that need to be done right to impress a feeling of quality. I would love to see that sort of quality from a company other than Apple, but lately I'm coming up empty. 1. Caps lock was replaced with home/end. Escape moved to backtick/~, which was placed between right ctrl and alt. Backspace and delete were put right next to each other. Oh, and all the function keys were removed. See http://college.wfu.edu/itg/wp-content/uploads/keyboard.png http://college.wfu.edu/itg/wp-content/uploads/keyboard.png for the whole horror show.
  - pareidolia 12y ago
    I have a Samsung 840 SSD in another laptop that I can hear from a meter a way - without headphones. Adaptive "keys" -> avoid like the plague
subsection1h 12y ago
I previously read about your experience with the X140e,[1] which is "certified pre-install for Ubuntu"[2] rather than "certified for Ubuntu"[3]. (I made note of your previous post in my personal wiki.) It sucks that hardware that is "certified pre-install" can have so many issues with vanilla Ubuntu. I definitely learned from your experience and plan to avoid hardware that is "certified pre-install". [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8847915 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8847915 [2] http://www.ubuntu.com/certification/hardware/201309-14195/ http://www.ubuntu.com/certification/hardware/201309-14195/ [3] http://www.ubuntu.com/certification/desktop/models/?level=Certified http://www.ubuntu.com/certification/desktop/models/?level=Ce...
frik 12y ago
You simply never experiences a real ThinkPad - meaning the ThinkPad T4xx/X2xx/W4xx business notebook series that originated from the IBM ThinkPad T40/T60 series. Your older notebook is just a low budget consumer device with the ThinkPad brand name attached. Sad, but true, Lenovo recently transformed also their business notebook series to low quality consumer style form factors. The last good devices are the T420/X220 series.
- ggreer 12y ago
  I've also used the X1 Carbon and the X230. Both had many small issues (and a few big ones) that made them feel like alpha-quality prototypes. Even simple things like trackpad gestures and scrolling were borderline-unusable. Instead of scrolling proportionally to my finger movement, their trackpads just triggered a "scroll mouse wheel" event, moving up/down by 3 lines. Options like smooth scrolling did nothing but add an animation in the 3 line movement. It's ridiculous. An iBook from 2005 has better trackpad scrolling. I'm surprised by the "no true ThinkPad" responses. How am I supposed to know which ThinkPads are real ones? Apparently the X220 is, but not the X230? The only differences seem to be some keyboard tweaks, the trackpad, and newer CPUs.
  - frik 12y ago
    Lenovo decreased the build quality with every iteration. The original IBM ThinkPad T60 was rock solid. The Lenovo T400/T410 and X200/X210 were great too, but already with thinner plastic case. The T420 and X220 were the last good series. The T430 and X230 came already with a bad keyboard&trackpad and was made of less durable plastic. It all started with the faulty T410s (mind the "s") which plastic was way too thin. The X1 is not a ThinkPad, just a generic notebook with its name attached. Maybe Lenovo changes their product strategy, then one can buy new products again.
  - tokenrove 12y ago
    They went downhill way before that, and just kept going downhill.
pekk 12y ago
Watch someone march into an unrelated Mac thread, announce they only use Thinkpads, and get downvoted straight into the gray. Some opinions are allowed on HN, others are not.
xorcist 12y ago
The x140e is not a real Thinkpad. The fact that it hasn't got the Thinkpad keyboard should be your first clue. Sadly Lenovo doesn't make it easy. Linux on Thinkpad is rock solid, but you have to get a real Thinkpad and not just something Lenovo slapped the name on. Get something from the series that existed before Lenovo bought the brand, the descendants of the T60/X60. Nothing with non-Intel CPU/GPU. There is Linux/Thinkpad wiki which is fairly regularly updated. Look at that before you buy unless you know which models are from the Thinkpad lineage. (But, Linux on Apple? Didn't even know that worked. Don't they source their own parts for which there are no Linux drivers? My laptop is my one tool, I don't want to download drivers. That's supposedly what Windows users do. I have no time for it.)
- calvin_ 12y ago
  It certainly has a TrackPoint and maybe a slightly compressed keyboard. It's somewhat ruggedized too for grade schoolers to slobber on. Why isn't it a real ThinkPad?
  - tokenrove 12y ago
    The keyboard is the first clue. I wouldn't buy it on that basis alone; I made that mistake already with the X1.
glogla 12y ago
I'm not sure about prices where you live, but here x140e costs 1/3 of Macbook Pro Retina 13. Sure you get more quality for three times to money. Sadly, the ones that are comparable on price, like x250, still ship horrible HD displays that are a big step down for someone used to retina.

by ggreer 12y ago

pareidolia 12y ago

Yes, I would agree about the X140e. (The 'e' stands for economy == cheap) The problem is that Lenovo calls just about anything a Thinkpad these days. The inner circle is what you find in this list. You will see that the X1_0es are not listed. I have an X120e, and I bought it since it was the absolute cheapest I could find that still had some "Thinkpadness" to it. I can see that the model line went downhill from there.

ggreer 12y ago
I agree that the X140e is the least ThinkPad-y of the recent ThinkPads. I didn't mean to single it out, but it's the ThinkPad I've used the most. I've also tried the 2nd-gen X1 Carbon and the X230. Those had similar design flaws. If anything, the X1 Carbon was worse. Seriously, the keyboard was a nightmare.[1] Like the X140e, the X230's fan ramped up/down in discrete increments instead of continuously varying. The fingerprint reader was useless. One particularly annoying bug in the X230 was its headphone jack. I don't know what kind of worthless shielding it used, but I could hear the SSD and CPU working. That sort of noise is literally unheard of in macs from the same period. I've used netbooks with better audio quality. Again, it's a ton of small things that need to be done right to impress a feeling of quality. I would love to see that sort of quality from a company other than Apple, but lately I'm coming up empty. 1. Caps lock was replaced with home/end. Escape moved to backtick/~, which was placed between right ctrl and alt. Backspace and delete were put right next to each other. Oh, and all the function keys were removed. See http://college.wfu.edu/itg/wp-content/uploads/keyboard.png http://college.wfu.edu/itg/wp-content/uploads/keyboard.png for the whole horror show.
- pareidolia 12y ago
  I have a Samsung 840 SSD in another laptop that I can hear from a meter a way - without headphones. Adaptive "keys" -> avoid like the plague

subsection1h 12y ago

I previously read about your experience with the X140e,[1] which is "certified pre-install for Ubuntu"[2] rather than "certified for Ubuntu"[3]. (I made note of your previous post in my personal wiki.) It sucks that hardware that is "certified pre-install" can have so many issues with vanilla Ubuntu. I definitely learned from your experience and plan to avoid hardware that is "certified pre-install". [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8847915 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8847915 [2] http://www.ubuntu.com/certification/hardware/201309-14195/ http://www.ubuntu.com/certification/hardware/201309-14195/ [3] http://www.ubuntu.com/certification/desktop/models/?level=Certified http://www.ubuntu.com/certification/desktop/models/?level=Ce...

frik 12y ago

You simply never experiences a real ThinkPad - meaning the ThinkPad T4xx/X2xx/W4xx business notebook series that originated from the IBM ThinkPad T40/T60 series. Your older notebook is just a low budget consumer device with the ThinkPad brand name attached. Sad, but true, Lenovo recently transformed also their business notebook series to low quality consumer style form factors. The last good devices are the T420/X220 series.

ggreer 12y ago
I've also used the X1 Carbon and the X230. Both had many small issues (and a few big ones) that made them feel like alpha-quality prototypes. Even simple things like trackpad gestures and scrolling were borderline-unusable. Instead of scrolling proportionally to my finger movement, their trackpads just triggered a "scroll mouse wheel" event, moving up/down by 3 lines. Options like smooth scrolling did nothing but add an animation in the 3 line movement. It's ridiculous. An iBook from 2005 has better trackpad scrolling. I'm surprised by the "no true ThinkPad" responses. How am I supposed to know which ThinkPads are real ones? Apparently the X220 is, but not the X230? The only differences seem to be some keyboard tweaks, the trackpad, and newer CPUs.
- frik 12y ago
  Lenovo decreased the build quality with every iteration. The original IBM ThinkPad T60 was rock solid. The Lenovo T400/T410 and X200/X210 were great too, but already with thinner plastic case. The T420 and X220 were the last good series. The T430 and X230 came already with a bad keyboard&trackpad and was made of less durable plastic. It all started with the faulty T410s (mind the "s") which plastic was way too thin. The X1 is not a ThinkPad, just a generic notebook with its name attached. Maybe Lenovo changes their product strategy, then one can buy new products again.
- tokenrove 12y ago
  They went downhill way before that, and just kept going downhill.

pekk 12y ago

Watch someone march into an unrelated Mac thread, announce they only use Thinkpads, and get downvoted straight into the gray. Some opinions are allowed on HN, others are not.

xorcist 12y ago

The x140e is not a real Thinkpad. The fact that it hasn't got the Thinkpad keyboard should be your first clue. Sadly Lenovo doesn't make it easy. Linux on Thinkpad is rock solid, but you have to get a real Thinkpad and not just something Lenovo slapped the name on. Get something from the series that existed before Lenovo bought the brand, the descendants of the T60/X60. Nothing with non-Intel CPU/GPU. There is Linux/Thinkpad wiki which is fairly regularly updated. Look at that before you buy unless you know which models are from the Thinkpad lineage. (But, Linux on Apple? Didn't even know that worked. Don't they source their own parts for which there are no Linux drivers? My laptop is my one tool, I don't want to download drivers. That's supposedly what Windows users do. I have no time for it.)

calvin_ 12y ago
It certainly has a TrackPoint and maybe a slightly compressed keyboard. It's somewhat ruggedized too for grade schoolers to slobber on. Why isn't it a real ThinkPad?
- tokenrove 12y ago
  The keyboard is the first clue. I wouldn't buy it on that basis alone; I made that mistake already with the X1.

glogla 12y ago

I'm not sure about prices where you live, but here x140e costs 1/3 of Macbook Pro Retina 13. Sure you get more quality for three times to money. Sadly, the ones that are comparable on price, like x250, still ship horrible HD displays that are a big step down for someone used to retina.