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If you're interested in running a fully libre system, any GM45 thinkpad (x200, t400) can be made to run libreboot by following some very thorough guides. If you

If you're interested in running a fully libre system, any GM45 thinkpad (x200, t400) can be made to run libreboot by following some very thorough guides. If you're willing to go even older than gm45, the T60 and X60 can be made to run libreboot without even opening them up. In the past few months I built myself an x200 with a brand new 9 cell battery, 128gb SSD, new keyboard, and 8gb ram for less than $200. Knowing that you're running a fully free system is priceless.

aagha 12y ago
What does it mean to run a "libre system"? Why would I want to do it? What are the benefits (other than cost) and what are the down-sides?
- kqr2 12y ago
  A "libre" system is a truly free system which the FSF and Richard Stallman endorses: https://stallman.org/stallman-computing.html https://stallman.org/stallman-computing.html
  - thrownaway2424 12y ago
    Then the answer is "no" because there has not yet been a system made that RMS will not nitpick in some way or another. The microcontroller that runs the LED on the back of the screen will not come with source code and so forth.
    - madez 12y ago
      The Libreboot X60 and X200 are endorsed by the FSF through its RYF-program.
    - kqr2 12y ago
      Actually Richard Stallman's view is a little more nuanced. From http://interviews.slashdot.org/story/14/05/05/2012218/richard-stallman-answers-your-questions http://interviews.slashdot.org/story/14/05/05/2012218/richar... : The case of the toaster is very clear: we can't tell, except by taking it apart, whether it has a processor and software or a special-purpose chip. Since that we can't tell the difference, it makes no difference: therefore, a program that will never be changed is equivalent to a circuit. I don't care whether a toaster or microwave oven contains software. In your example, unless the microcontroller which controls the LED can be upgraded, then for all intents and purposes, RMS considers it a circuit which cannot be modified.
      - kpil 12y ago
        On the other hand, I have seriously considered to rip out the control software on my owen because of its unbelievably bad user interface. If the source was available I would already have done it. But then again, if the manufactorer had just tried to replicate the traditional knobs and dials then the source would not had mattered.
      - CamperBob2 12y ago
        So it would be OK to use GPL3 software in an embedded device whose programmability is deliberately and permanently disabled at the factory? Where does a device's toaster-nature stop and its TiVo-nature begin?
        belorn 12y ago
        One need to look at it from the perspective of property ownership rather than inherent ability of the device. If someone has bought a device, at that point they should be in control of the property. If the manufacturer can exert control which you don't have, then they are de facto owners of the device after sale. Its the difference between me selling you a computer you own and control, and giving you a user account while retaining root control for myself. The first is a sale and transfer of ownership, and the other is me renting out cloud access. From a perspective of rights, liberty, autonomy, control, and privacy, a toaster and a TiVo is two completely different kind of devices. One is your property which you control, and the other is someones else device which you have bought permission to use. Last, let me clarify with an example. Let say I rent you a coffee machine on indefinite period of time, on the condition that you pay me $1 per cup. Simple concept, common practices in many offices, and it is easy to understand who the property owner of the device. Now lets change the setup by actually selling the device to you, but where DRM restricts the device so only my coffee is permitted, which just happens to add an extra cost of 1$ per cup compared to other brands. Has anything actually changed?
pervycreeper 12y ago
What makes Coreboot (presumably) nonfree?
- madez 12y ago
  "The coreboot project distributes proprietary code/blobs on some computers; this can include things like CPU microcode updates, memory initialization code and so on. The project also actively recommends that the user install additional blobs in some cases (such as the video BIOS or Intel ME)." http://www.libreboot.org/docs/index.html http://www.libreboot.org/docs/index.html
  - yuhong 12y ago
    Personally, I think there is zero point in skipping microcode updates when you are already executing non-free microcode when the CPU comes out of reset.
    - comex 12y ago
      Yeah, this just seems like burying one's face in the sand to me. Every Intel CPU runs non-free software. It's nice that there are attempts to remove and/or replace Intel ME, but that's just step 1; Intel's microcode, which has never been decrypted or reverse engineered, undoubtedly contains a lot of very software-like bits, and with the upcoming SGX, those bits are suddenly going to get quite hostile to the owner of the device, by locking the OS out from inspecting running programs. Running from ROM or from a blob provided by firmware ought to be considered immaterial; it's not like Stallman would be okay with running Windows as long as he stuck to version preinstalled on his device and never installed any updates. I believe AMD is no better. But ARM CPUs are getting faster and faster, and most of them have no upgradable microcode, which probably means little or no microcode at all; if you truly believe in free software, get something with one of those (and hope you can avoid the nightmare of ARM SoCs' GPUs). Having the HDL source to the CPU would be even better (see lowRISC), but one step at a time...
      - yuhong 12y ago
fencepost 12y ago
However, if you're going to be running Linux you might avoid the W500 (and T400?) with switchable graphics - the W500 uses the ATI Catalyst and apparently the switching under Linux doesn't work - even if you're running on the Intel graphics the ATI graphics processor is running at 100% with expected impacts on temperature (less effect on battery life, because it's going to go into thermal shutdown anyway). Apparently with the x10 series they switched over to NVidia and I've been told those work better.
gandalfu 12y ago
Anecdote here: I recently bought a x200 and installed libreboot, I decided to go full on tin hat and removed the wlan modem and replaced the wifi card with one with no DMA access. The computer now boots into GRUB (loaded in the motherboard ROM) and from there loads grub in the disk drive. When I received the laptop the battery was dead, wouldn't last one second. After libreboot it seems that linux energy management is less conservative and the battery now is charged and lasts 3h+.

aagha 12y ago

What does it mean to run a "libre system"? Why would I want to do it? What are the benefits (other than cost) and what are the down-sides?

kqr2 12y ago
A "libre" system is a truly free system which the FSF and Richard Stallman endorses: https://stallman.org/stallman-computing.html https://stallman.org/stallman-computing.html
- thrownaway2424 12y ago
  Then the answer is "no" because there has not yet been a system made that RMS will not nitpick in some way or another. The microcontroller that runs the LED on the back of the screen will not come with source code and so forth.
  - madez 12y ago
    The Libreboot X60 and X200 are endorsed by the FSF through its RYF-program.
  - kqr2 12y ago
    Actually Richard Stallman's view is a little more nuanced. From http://interviews.slashdot.org/story/14/05/05/2012218/richard-stallman-answers-your-questions http://interviews.slashdot.org/story/14/05/05/2012218/richar... : The case of the toaster is very clear: we can't tell, except by taking it apart, whether it has a processor and software or a special-purpose chip. Since that we can't tell the difference, it makes no difference: therefore, a program that will never be changed is equivalent to a circuit. I don't care whether a toaster or microwave oven contains software. In your example, unless the microcontroller which controls the LED can be upgraded, then for all intents and purposes, RMS considers it a circuit which cannot be modified.
    - kpil 12y ago
      On the other hand, I have seriously considered to rip out the control software on my owen because of its unbelievably bad user interface. If the source was available I would already have done it. But then again, if the manufactorer had just tried to replicate the traditional knobs and dials then the source would not had mattered.
    - CamperBob2 12y ago
      So it would be OK to use GPL3 software in an embedded device whose programmability is deliberately and permanently disabled at the factory? Where does a device's toaster-nature stop and its TiVo-nature begin?
      - belorn 12y ago
        One need to look at it from the perspective of property ownership rather than inherent ability of the device. If someone has bought a device, at that point they should be in control of the property. If the manufacturer can exert control which you don't have, then they are de facto owners of the device after sale. Its the difference between me selling you a computer you own and control, and giving you a user account while retaining root control for myself. The first is a sale and transfer of ownership, and the other is me renting out cloud access. From a perspective of rights, liberty, autonomy, control, and privacy, a toaster and a TiVo is two completely different kind of devices. One is your property which you control, and the other is someones else device which you have bought permission to use. Last, let me clarify with an example. Let say I rent you a coffee machine on indefinite period of time, on the condition that you pay me $1 per cup. Simple concept, common practices in many offices, and it is easy to understand who the property owner of the device. Now lets change the setup by actually selling the device to you, but where DRM restricts the device so only my coffee is permitted, which just happens to add an extra cost of 1$ per cup compared to other brands. Has anything actually changed?

pervycreeper 12y ago

What makes Coreboot (presumably) nonfree?

madez 12y ago
"The coreboot project distributes proprietary code/blobs on some computers; this can include things like CPU microcode updates, memory initialization code and so on. The project also actively recommends that the user install additional blobs in some cases (such as the video BIOS or Intel ME)." http://www.libreboot.org/docs/index.html http://www.libreboot.org/docs/index.html
- yuhong 12y ago
  Personally, I think there is zero point in skipping microcode updates when you are already executing non-free microcode when the CPU comes out of reset.
  - comex 12y ago
    Yeah, this just seems like burying one's face in the sand to me. Every Intel CPU runs non-free software. It's nice that there are attempts to remove and/or replace Intel ME, but that's just step 1; Intel's microcode, which has never been decrypted or reverse engineered, undoubtedly contains a lot of very software-like bits, and with the upcoming SGX, those bits are suddenly going to get quite hostile to the owner of the device, by locking the OS out from inspecting running programs. Running from ROM or from a blob provided by firmware ought to be considered immaterial; it's not like Stallman would be okay with running Windows as long as he stuck to version preinstalled on his device and never installed any updates. I believe AMD is no better. But ARM CPUs are getting faster and faster, and most of them have no upgradable microcode, which probably means little or no microcode at all; if you truly believe in free software, get something with one of those (and hope you can avoid the nightmare of ARM SoCs' GPUs). Having the HDL source to the CPU would be even better (see lowRISC), but one step at a time...
    - yuhong 12y ago

fencepost 12y ago

However, if you're going to be running Linux you might avoid the W500 (and T400?) with switchable graphics - the W500 uses the ATI Catalyst and apparently the switching under Linux doesn't work - even if you're running on the Intel graphics the ATI graphics processor is running at 100% with expected impacts on temperature (less effect on battery life, because it's going to go into thermal shutdown anyway). Apparently with the x10 series they switched over to NVidia and I've been told those work better.

gandalfu 12y ago

Anecdote here: I recently bought a x200 and installed libreboot, I decided to go full on tin hat and removed the wlan modem and replaced the wifi card with one with no DMA access. The computer now boots into GRUB (loaded in the motherboard ROM) and from there loads grub in the disk drive. When I received the laptop the battery was dead, wouldn't last one second. After libreboot it seems that linux energy management is less conservative and the battery now is charged and lasts 3h+.