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What stood out for me was I didn't notice a single woman out of the hundreds of people shown in this video. And with a few exceptions they were all white. I ve

What stood out for me was I didn't notice a single woman out of the hundreds of people shown in this video. And with a few exceptions they were all white. I very much want to know the attitudes of all those white men toward women and non-whites.

xdissent 12y ago
There are in fact plenty of hardcore bands from past and present with non-white/female/lgbt members. Bad Brains, Limpwrist, The Comes... Of course there are some openly anti-female/non-white/lgbt bands, but they're by no means the norm. My experience in punk and hardcore was defined by the open and accepting nature of the people in the scene. Our local venue's official motto was "NO RACIST, SEXIST, OR HOMOPHOBIC SHIT TOLERATED" (Lucy's Record shop in Nashville)
SwellJoe 12y ago
I guess it's kinda like the tech industry, in that way, eh? But, you're right. Hard core and punk were boys clubs, historically speaking. It took whole separate scenes (riot grrrl, among others) to push those boundaries out to include more diversity. There are now reasonably large feminist hard core and punk scenes, as well as lots of off-shoots. I just caught Sleater-Kinney live a few days ago; they're, I guess they might be called, second generation feminist punks, and they had a huge sold out crowd. Punk and hard core were also occasionally ambiguous about LGBTQ folks, even though several quite important bands had gay members (Husker Du, The Dicks, Big Boys, etc.) or were vocally supportive of gay rights. Bad Brains, featured in this video, and among the best loved hard core bands in history, had a well-known falling out with MDC over some hateful comments H.R. (singer of Bad Brains) made about Randy "Biscuit" Turner from Big Boys. "Queercore" is now a thing that has a name, and being gay isn't a thing to keep secret in the modern punk and hard core world. I don't know if H.R. is still a homophobic asshole. Some people grow out of that stuff. I think we can reasonably say that working and middle class white dudes aren't renowned for being inclusive, but some try harder than others. And, of course, one could also argue that part of the reason there are few women or people of color is because this particular art form was born of a very specific experience...and that experience is that of a bunch of young, angry, working and middle class white dudes. Early hip hop scene films feature predominantly young, angry, poor, black dudes, probably for similar reasons. That said, there are racist/sexist/homophobic hard core bands. There are hard core bands that actively promote white supremacy, various bigoted "Christian" values, etc. The bands featured in this video aren't really among them, however. Even the "skinhead" bands in the film, like Agnostic Front and the Cro-Mags, are of the "non-racist" breed...maybe even anti-racist. I'm not deeply familiar with any of them, so I wouldn't want to make too many sweeping pronouncements about how they feel about racism/sexism/homophobia (except the Bad Brains thing, because that story includes one of my favorite bands/artists as the target of their homophobia, so I'm familiar with that story).
orbitur 12y ago
You didn't notice Bad Brains? I can't speak for everyone, but the hardcore scene (at large) never seemed to be particularly racist.
mturmon 12y ago
Such a complicated question. I think about the (very non-racist) ska skinheads I met in Europe, or Ian MacKaye's song "Guilty of Being White", which had a more nuanced back story than I understood when I first heard of it.
catshirt 12y ago
you have to remember how hardcore started. it's almost a working class movement. in NYC in the 80s, this was mostly composed of white males. there are a few notable exceptions, like HR from Bad Brains (one of the first legendary hardcore front men, who is Jamaican). the scene has definitely become more diverse. non-whites and females are more well represented in hardcore than they are in the software industry. that all said, racism and sexism have basically always been unacceptable in the hardcore community, and blatant racist or sexist behavior at a show would, for better or worse, probably result in having the shit kicked out of you. not that i condone violence, but there are few places in the world where discrimination is so actively discouraged. there are racist subdivisions and bands, but they are basically considered the Westboro Baptist Church of hardcore.
peterwwillis 12y ago
If you want to know how 'all of those white men' think, you will have to interview every single one of them, because they are not all the same. In general though, most punk subcultures (like hardcore) are full of idealistic, passionate, left-leaning individuals who get really goddamn angry at any kind of oppression. I'd say that with very few exceptions, those white men care about women and non-whites more than most other people you'll ever meet.

xdissent 12y ago

There are in fact plenty of hardcore bands from past and present with non-white/female/lgbt members. Bad Brains, Limpwrist, The Comes... Of course there are some openly anti-female/non-white/lgbt bands, but they're by no means the norm. My experience in punk and hardcore was defined by the open and accepting nature of the people in the scene. Our local venue's official motto was "NO RACIST, SEXIST, OR HOMOPHOBIC SHIT TOLERATED" (Lucy's Record shop in Nashville)

SwellJoe 12y ago

I guess it's kinda like the tech industry, in that way, eh? But, you're right. Hard core and punk were boys clubs, historically speaking. It took whole separate scenes (riot grrrl, among others) to push those boundaries out to include more diversity. There are now reasonably large feminist hard core and punk scenes, as well as lots of off-shoots. I just caught Sleater-Kinney live a few days ago; they're, I guess they might be called, second generation feminist punks, and they had a huge sold out crowd. Punk and hard core were also occasionally ambiguous about LGBTQ folks, even though several quite important bands had gay members (Husker Du, The Dicks, Big Boys, etc.) or were vocally supportive of gay rights. Bad Brains, featured in this video, and among the best loved hard core bands in history, had a well-known falling out with MDC over some hateful comments H.R. (singer of Bad Brains) made about Randy "Biscuit" Turner from Big Boys. "Queercore" is now a thing that has a name, and being gay isn't a thing to keep secret in the modern punk and hard core world. I don't know if H.R. is still a homophobic asshole. Some people grow out of that stuff. I think we can reasonably say that working and middle class white dudes aren't renowned for being inclusive, but some try harder than others. And, of course, one could also argue that part of the reason there are few women or people of color is because this particular art form was born of a very specific experience...and that experience is that of a bunch of young, angry, working and middle class white dudes. Early hip hop scene films feature predominantly young, angry, poor, black dudes, probably for similar reasons. That said, there are racist/sexist/homophobic hard core bands. There are hard core bands that actively promote white supremacy, various bigoted "Christian" values, etc. The bands featured in this video aren't really among them, however. Even the "skinhead" bands in the film, like Agnostic Front and the Cro-Mags, are of the "non-racist" breed...maybe even anti-racist. I'm not deeply familiar with any of them, so I wouldn't want to make too many sweeping pronouncements about how they feel about racism/sexism/homophobia (except the Bad Brains thing, because that story includes one of my favorite bands/artists as the target of their homophobia, so I'm familiar with that story).

orbitur 12y ago

You didn't notice Bad Brains? I can't speak for everyone, but the hardcore scene (at large) never seemed to be particularly racist.

mturmon 12y ago

Such a complicated question. I think about the (very non-racist) ska skinheads I met in Europe, or Ian MacKaye's song "Guilty of Being White", which had a more nuanced back story than I understood when I first heard of it.

catshirt 12y ago

you have to remember how hardcore started. it's almost a working class movement. in NYC in the 80s, this was mostly composed of white males. there are a few notable exceptions, like HR from Bad Brains (one of the first legendary hardcore front men, who is Jamaican). the scene has definitely become more diverse. non-whites and females are more well represented in hardcore than they are in the software industry. that all said, racism and sexism have basically always been unacceptable in the hardcore community, and blatant racist or sexist behavior at a show would, for better or worse, probably result in having the shit kicked out of you. not that i condone violence, but there are few places in the world where discrimination is so actively discouraged. there are racist subdivisions and bands, but they are basically considered the Westboro Baptist Church of hardcore.

peterwwillis 12y ago

If you want to know how 'all of those white men' think, you will have to interview every single one of them, because they are not all the same. In general though, most punk subcultures (like hardcore) are full of idealistic, passionate, left-leaning individuals who get really goddamn angry at any kind of oppression. I'd say that with very few exceptions, those white men care about women and non-whites more than most other people you'll ever meet.