5 ms·

Atlas Beta Program Launched

46 points by wooby 17y ago

icey 17y ago
"Membership does not include a copy of the final version of Atlas, but we'll deduct the $20 from the final price." Has there been any indication as to the neighborhood of the final price? I'd hate to invest a bunch of time learning a new tool to find out that it's priced outside of my budget when it releases.
- boucher 17y ago
  We haven't set a final price yet. We're hoping to use our beta members as a sounding board for determining the right price point. It's worth noting that all of the stuff Atlas builds is still usable without Atlas, though there will be no way to edit it without Atlas. Of course, most of the editing technology is also open source, so building a cib2nib (the reverse of our nib2cib) should be very possible, and give you alternatives.
  - icey 17y ago
    I think it looks like a really cool product; I definitely want to use it. You guys are making the right decision by charging for it for sure. My only concern is that I don't know how 280 North views pricing, so it gives me a little bit of pause. Either way, I'm looking forward to seeing how it shapes up - good luck!
    - boucher 17y ago
      I can tell you that it will be a lot more than $20, and it will be less $1000. Big range, I know.
      - abstractwater 17y ago
        I take it will be a one time charge, not a subscription model?
        boucher 17y ago
        Yeah, Atlas 1.0 is a downloadable app with a one time charge. Eventually we will have an online component.
      - antonovka 17y ago
        Less than $1000? For any per-seat pricing that nears $1k, Atlas needs be so much better than the current tools that it'll shoot sunshine and rainbows out of our asses while we're using it. Investing in Atlas is making a heavy investment in technology solely provided by yourselves: Obj-J and Cappuccino. The foundation being open source may alleviate some concern there, but to do so, the open source foundation will need to be of sufficient quality and usefulness that we feel we can work without your IDE in the future. I'm also VERY surprised that you're charging for an expiring beta. Doing so will greatly limit user exposure, and I'm pretty uncomfortable with paying for the privilege of testing your software. You're not Apple -- developers don't need to pay for the ability to test/update their software for an upcoming OS release.
        boucher 17y ago
        Well, it's as unlikely to cost $1000 as it is to cost $20. That being said, Atlas is completely optional. Everything built with Cappuccino to date did NOT use Atlas. And this will always be a viable option. This beta is not intended to get large exposure. It's intended to get a group of people who we are confident will be dedicated to helping us make Atlas a better product.
        antonovka 17y ago
        Well, it's as unlikely to cost $1000 as it is to cost $20. That being said, Atlas is completely optional. Everything built with Cappuccino to date did NOT use Atlas. And this will always be a viable option. You wouldn't be the first company to start with these intentions, only to eventually widen the open source/commercial split, where features never reach the open source edition. It's a possibility, however remote you might consider it, that we have to anticipate and plan for. If the tools save time and money, we'll buy it, but we also have to consider potential lock-in costs a very real part of the price. This beta is not intended to get large exposure. It's intended to get a group of people who we are confident will be dedicated to helping us make Atlas a better product. If we're supposed to be helping you, it seems inappropriate to charge.
        17y ago
      - ams6110 17y ago
        Wow. Even NEXTSTEP, the whole OS, and dev tools, was less than $1000 I think. I may be remembering the .edu pricing.
        shimon 17y ago
        And most of the $20 to $1000 range is less than $1000 also. Please realize they haven't set a price yet, and "between $20 and $1000" was apparently a big enough range to encompass what boucher thought might be possible. This comment deserves between 0 and 1000 upvotes.
        eob 17y ago
        Hah. You got more than 0 and less than 1000 from me.
        ams6110 17y ago
        Well then IMHO he should have stopped with "we haven't set a price yet". That $1000 figure leaps off the page and causes a lot of potentially unnecessary consternation.
      - cmelbye 17y ago
        What? Apple's development environment is essentially free (unless you count the cost of the operating system, in which case it's still a lot less than $1,000). Even if you compare this with the iPhone Developer program, it's still way overpriced.
        dmix 17y ago
        Apple profits from its development program in many other ways. This is 280's business model.
        boucher 17y ago
        It's impossible for something that has no price to be overpriced. But thanks for the feedback.
shib71 17y ago
How is a signup form meant to be interesting? Perhaps I'm just out of the loop, but the only thing I know about Atlas now is that it's associated with Heroku and it will cost more than $20. That's not enough.
- boucher 17y ago
  We're just hosted on heroku. If you'd like more info, there are a few videos available on http://280atlas.com http://280atlas.com Don't worry though, this is a beta, and it's meant for people who already know what Atlas is and already want it.
  - deleted 17y ago
    [deleted]
  - shib71 17y ago
    Thanks. A blog post or something when you guys were ready would be great. But this link is a bit premature and not very interesting.
barrkel 17y ago
Forgive my complete cluelessness, but what is "Atlas Beta"? I can't find any simple explanation for what this actually is.
- wooby 17y ago
  http://280atlas.com/ http://280atlas.com/
- abossy 17y ago
  I was wondering the same thing. From the actual website: "Atlas is a development tool for building Cappuccino applications. In addition to managing your project files and editing code, it includes a powerful visual layout tool for designing your interfaces without ever having to touch code. Designers are empowered to interact with their designs instantly, which means programmers get to finished applications faster."
- martey 17y ago
  This confused me as well. http://280atlas.com/what.php http://280atlas.com/what.php says: Atlas is a development tool for building Cappuccino applications.
  - barrkel 17y ago
    Ah, and Cappuccino is apparently a clone of Apple's Cocoa in Javascript, using a preprocessor for Javascript called Objective J.
    - ntoshev 17y ago
      This sounds like the same approach Microsoft ASP.NET has: try to fit web apps in the desktop GUI event paradigm. Is this correct?
      - burke 17y ago
        Yes. It doesn't work for every app.
      - 17y ago
bonaldi 17y ago
I've been playing with this tonight. I had absolutely no problem paying for the beta - I've paid Microsoft and Apple for betas and they need the cash a lot less than these guys. That said, I wouldn't quite recommend it if you're on the fence or just want a quick intro to Cappuccino. It is a beta -- there are a lot of polish issues with the cocoa app, there are some bugs, and these are understandable. But the biggest problem of all is the total dearth of documentation. There is a class guide, there are some non-Atlas tutorials, and that's about it. So, for instance, my app template comes up by default with a menubar, but there's no obvious way I can see to remove or edit it. MainMenu.cib has no menu in it, so I can't even see how to make connections to it and there's nothing to read to find out. It's definitely impressive -- that they've done this in JS and running in a browser is a little marvel. However, I'm pretty used to Xcode and Interface Builder, and in comparison it's really not there. Trying to work with multiple embedded split-views really highlighted the differences: it's tricky enough in IB, and proved almost impossible here. That they've achieved so much does mean that you're into uncanny valley territory; if it looks like a cocoa app, I want it to work like one too. However, the things I could figure out how to do, worked well. I defined outlets and actions, hooked them up, and was basically thinking and coding exactly as I would in Cocoa and Objective-C. Nifty. It has got a fair way to go, but I think they well might get there. If you're already working with Cappuccino and don't need documentation, it could well be worth your time.
- boucher 17y ago
  Thanks for the feedback. Accurate assessment. This is definitely still too early to use for most people. We're not really trying to push the beta, we're just looking for dedicated users to help give us great feedback.
  - eob 17y ago
    Congrats you guys on launching the beta. I've been following Cappuccino for a while and, while I'm still on the fence about it as a developer, it is certainly an impressive technical feat.
deleted 17y ago
[deleted]
WesleyJohnson 17y ago
I was really looking forward to signing up for the beta this evening, but unfortunately I'm on Windows and the beta is currently Mac only. I'm surprised that more people haven't heard of 280 North or Objective-J and Cappuccino in general. I would consider myself moderately inclined when it comes to technology and I had heard of Cappuccino close to a year ago. I watched the demo of Atlas some weeks back and I was really impressed with what they've accomplished. I think they're doing the right thing by charging for the beta. It's a small team of guys doing the development and I'm sure they could use the money. Not to mention, if you're paying for a beta then you've likely been following the development, have serious intent on using the technology long term and will likely contribute more than a casual user would - which from what I gather is exactly the target market they're after. Looking forward to windows support in the coming month(s).

46 points by wooby 17y ago

icey 17y ago

"Membership does not include a copy of the final version of Atlas, but we'll deduct the $20 from the final price." Has there been any indication as to the neighborhood of the final price? I'd hate to invest a bunch of time learning a new tool to find out that it's priced outside of my budget when it releases.

boucher 17y ago
We haven't set a final price yet. We're hoping to use our beta members as a sounding board for determining the right price point. It's worth noting that all of the stuff Atlas builds is still usable without Atlas, though there will be no way to edit it without Atlas. Of course, most of the editing technology is also open source, so building a cib2nib (the reverse of our nib2cib) should be very possible, and give you alternatives.
- icey 17y ago
  I think it looks like a really cool product; I definitely want to use it. You guys are making the right decision by charging for it for sure. My only concern is that I don't know how 280 North views pricing, so it gives me a little bit of pause. Either way, I'm looking forward to seeing how it shapes up - good luck!
  - boucher 17y ago
    I can tell you that it will be a lot more than $20, and it will be less $1000. Big range, I know.
    - abstractwater 17y ago
      I take it will be a one time charge, not a subscription model?
      - boucher 17y ago
        Yeah, Atlas 1.0 is a downloadable app with a one time charge. Eventually we will have an online component.
    - antonovka 17y ago
      Less than $1000? For any per-seat pricing that nears $1k, Atlas needs be so much better than the current tools that it'll shoot sunshine and rainbows out of our asses while we're using it. Investing in Atlas is making a heavy investment in technology solely provided by yourselves: Obj-J and Cappuccino. The foundation being open source may alleviate some concern there, but to do so, the open source foundation will need to be of sufficient quality and usefulness that we feel we can work without your IDE in the future. I'm also VERY surprised that you're charging for an expiring beta. Doing so will greatly limit user exposure, and I'm pretty uncomfortable with paying for the privilege of testing your software. You're not Apple -- developers don't need to pay for the ability to test/update their software for an upcoming OS release.
      - boucher 17y ago
        Well, it's as unlikely to cost $1000 as it is to cost $20. That being said, Atlas is completely optional. Everything built with Cappuccino to date did NOT use Atlas. And this will always be a viable option. This beta is not intended to get large exposure. It's intended to get a group of people who we are confident will be dedicated to helping us make Atlas a better product.
        antonovka 17y ago
        Well, it's as unlikely to cost $1000 as it is to cost $20. That being said, Atlas is completely optional. Everything built with Cappuccino to date did NOT use Atlas. And this will always be a viable option. You wouldn't be the first company to start with these intentions, only to eventually widen the open source/commercial split, where features never reach the open source edition. It's a possibility, however remote you might consider it, that we have to anticipate and plan for. If the tools save time and money, we'll buy it, but we also have to consider potential lock-in costs a very real part of the price. This beta is not intended to get large exposure. It's intended to get a group of people who we are confident will be dedicated to helping us make Atlas a better product. If we're supposed to be helping you, it seems inappropriate to charge.
        17y ago
    - ams6110 17y ago
      Wow. Even NEXTSTEP, the whole OS, and dev tools, was less than $1000 I think. I may be remembering the .edu pricing.
      - shimon 17y ago
        And most of the $20 to $1000 range is less than $1000 also. Please realize they haven't set a price yet, and "between $20 and $1000" was apparently a big enough range to encompass what boucher thought might be possible. This comment deserves between 0 and 1000 upvotes.
        eob 17y ago
        Hah. You got more than 0 and less than 1000 from me.
        ams6110 17y ago
        Well then IMHO he should have stopped with "we haven't set a price yet". That $1000 figure leaps off the page and causes a lot of potentially unnecessary consternation.
    - cmelbye 17y ago
      What? Apple's development environment is essentially free (unless you count the cost of the operating system, in which case it's still a lot less than $1,000). Even if you compare this with the iPhone Developer program, it's still way overpriced.
      - dmix 17y ago
        Apple profits from its development program in many other ways. This is 280's business model.
      - boucher 17y ago
        It's impossible for something that has no price to be overpriced. But thanks for the feedback.

shib71 17y ago

How is a signup form meant to be interesting? Perhaps I'm just out of the loop, but the only thing I know about Atlas now is that it's associated with Heroku and it will cost more than $20. That's not enough.

boucher 17y ago
We're just hosted on heroku. If you'd like more info, there are a few videos available on http://280atlas.com http://280atlas.com Don't worry though, this is a beta, and it's meant for people who already know what Atlas is and already want it.
- deleted 17y ago
  [deleted]
- shib71 17y ago
  Thanks. A blog post or something when you guys were ready would be great. But this link is a bit premature and not very interesting.

barrkel 17y ago

Forgive my complete cluelessness, but what is "Atlas Beta"? I can't find any simple explanation for what this actually is.

wooby 17y ago
http://280atlas.com/ http://280atlas.com/
abossy 17y ago
I was wondering the same thing. From the actual website: "Atlas is a development tool for building Cappuccino applications. In addition to managing your project files and editing code, it includes a powerful visual layout tool for designing your interfaces without ever having to touch code. Designers are empowered to interact with their designs instantly, which means programmers get to finished applications faster."
martey 17y ago
This confused me as well. http://280atlas.com/what.php http://280atlas.com/what.php says: Atlas is a development tool for building Cappuccino applications.
- barrkel 17y ago
  Ah, and Cappuccino is apparently a clone of Apple's Cocoa in Javascript, using a preprocessor for Javascript called Objective J.
  - ntoshev 17y ago
    This sounds like the same approach Microsoft ASP.NET has: try to fit web apps in the desktop GUI event paradigm. Is this correct?
    - burke 17y ago
      Yes. It doesn't work for every app.
    - 17y ago

bonaldi 17y ago

I've been playing with this tonight. I had absolutely no problem paying for the beta - I've paid Microsoft and Apple for betas and they need the cash a lot less than these guys. That said, I wouldn't quite recommend it if you're on the fence or just want a quick intro to Cappuccino. It is a beta -- there are a lot of polish issues with the cocoa app, there are some bugs, and these are understandable. But the biggest problem of all is the total dearth of documentation. There is a class guide, there are some non-Atlas tutorials, and that's about it. So, for instance, my app template comes up by default with a menubar, but there's no obvious way I can see to remove or edit it. MainMenu.cib has no menu in it, so I can't even see how to make connections to it and there's nothing to read to find out. It's definitely impressive -- that they've done this in JS and running in a browser is a little marvel. However, I'm pretty used to Xcode and Interface Builder, and in comparison it's really not there. Trying to work with multiple embedded split-views really highlighted the differences: it's tricky enough in IB, and proved almost impossible here. That they've achieved so much does mean that you're into uncanny valley territory; if it looks like a cocoa app, I want it to work like one too. However, the things I could figure out how to do, worked well. I defined outlets and actions, hooked them up, and was basically thinking and coding exactly as I would in Cocoa and Objective-C. Nifty. It has got a fair way to go, but I think they well might get there. If you're already working with Cappuccino and don't need documentation, it could well be worth your time.

boucher 17y ago
Thanks for the feedback. Accurate assessment. This is definitely still too early to use for most people. We're not really trying to push the beta, we're just looking for dedicated users to help give us great feedback.
- eob 17y ago
  Congrats you guys on launching the beta. I've been following Cappuccino for a while and, while I'm still on the fence about it as a developer, it is certainly an impressive technical feat.

deleted 17y ago

[deleted]

WesleyJohnson 17y ago

I was really looking forward to signing up for the beta this evening, but unfortunately I'm on Windows and the beta is currently Mac only. I'm surprised that more people haven't heard of 280 North or Objective-J and Cappuccino in general. I would consider myself moderately inclined when it comes to technology and I had heard of Cappuccino close to a year ago. I watched the demo of Atlas some weeks back and I was really impressed with what they've accomplished. I think they're doing the right thing by charging for the beta. It's a small team of guys doing the development and I'm sure they could use the money. Not to mention, if you're paying for a beta then you've likely been following the development, have serious intent on using the technology long term and will likely contribute more than a casual user would - which from what I gather is exactly the target market they're after. Looking forward to windows support in the coming month(s).