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> A mixture. One of my proudest moments at Foursquare was March 2011 at South By Southwest. In my keynote there, I described it as if we just pulled a Mr. Miyag

> A mixture. One of my proudest moments at Foursquare was March 2011 at South By Southwest. In my keynote there, I described it as if we just pulled a Mr. Miyagi on you guys. You think that you’re checking in to get points and badges — and meanwhile we just made an awesome personalized local search engine for you! You think that you’re washing a car but you’re really learning karate! This is what we wanted to do all along. From that moment, Foursquare was about search and recommendations — a smarter search engine that learns about where you go. But by that point, people were so into the game stuff that they either couldn’t see or didn’t see it. This is so incredibly arrogant. It's not that people couldn't see it or didn't see it, it's that they didn't want it. The game features made 4sq unique and fun. People don't want a "personalized local search engine" because there aren't millions of restaurants and bars around where they're at right now. It's just not that big of a problem to find a place to eat and yes, while they do an ok job helping out if you are looking for that, so does Yelp.

k-mcgrady 11y ago
I disagree. I don't know anyone who thought that gaming stuff was fun. It was silly and a waste of time. Foursquare now is great at recommendations - something people actually need. I don't think it was necessary to rip the checkins out of it and into Swarm but I think the people who actually found that fun and a vocal minority.
- exstudent2 11y ago
  My anecdotes are the complete opposite of yours :) My friends loved checking in and earning badges and none of them think the recommendations are great.
  - k-mcgrady 11y ago
    :) Strange. I don't understand why they split the app. If they kept it together all our friends could have been happy.
    - slowernet 11y ago
      Some background on their rationale: https://medium.com/@noah_weiss/the-lego-block-exercise-4c7d60eeb38f https://medium.com/@noah_weiss/the-lego-block-exercise-4c7d6...
      - exstudent2 11y ago
        It reads like they keep wanting to back the product into their theories regardless of if there's a market for it or if their existing user base wanted those changes. My personal feeling was they discovered that the gamification angle was successful but the market wasn't huge so they got pressured into a change in direction to a (theoretically) larger market by their investors. All of these interviews and pontifications seem like justification for that move. It doesn't seem to have worked out well.
- sandis 11y ago
  It was silly, sure. But it worked and it encouraged people to check-in AND leave reviews. All of the reviews (or "tips" how they call it) I left were the ones I left after checking-in. Splitting Foursquare into two apps was a mistake. Nearly all of my friends have Swarm installed but most haven't kept the Foursquare app around. The functionality worked great in unison.
- lnanek2 11y ago
  The problem is I don't know anyone who wouldn't just use Yelp for recommendations, my wife being the closest example. Personally, I have no use for recommendations, but enjoy seeing my friends pictures and comments as they check in, so Foursquare as it is now is useless to me whereas before it had some interest and I caught some tech events I would have otherwise missed.
taylorwc 11y ago
I agree with a lot of your commentary, but think that Yelp is a horrible place to try to sift through shameless paid plugs and trolls. My experience is that 4sq has some of the highest signal-to-noise ratio of local reviews... for now.
- exstudent2 11y ago
  I actually use a mix of both and find that 4sq works better in some cities and Yelp in others. Both are pretty bad as far as reviews/tips go. I pretty much discount everything I read there. 4sq is nice because I can see which of my friends have been to a location, which is a lot more meaningful to me than some random person's opinion of a place. Ironically THAT feature has been downplayed in 4sq. After reading Crowley's interview, I guess it's because it's not part of the search vision. I would consider myself an outlier in terms of how much I go out and travel though. Most "regular people" I talk to maybe go out once a week to their favorite spot. I just don't think discovery is that large of a market.
  - hobarrera 11y ago
    > After reading Crowley's interview, I guess it's because it's not part of the search vision. Which isn't really smart. Friends usually share a common taste, so if all my friends like some venue, any smart search engine would give priority to showing me that first.
vincentbarr 11y ago
>People don't want a "personalized local search engine" because there aren't millions of restaurants and bars around where they're at right now. It's just not that big of a problem to find a place to eat and yes, while they do an ok job helping out if you are looking for that, so does Yelp. Hm, I would wager that there is a considerable population of people who would want - and use - a personalized, local search engine, so long as it lived up to its promise. Second, people have preferences. My hunch is that people's criteria for finding a restaurant are more nuanced than simply '[finding] a place to eat', or a place that serves food. They may want to find a place with Thai food that's affordable, or an American restaurant with vegan options that rarely has a wait, or a pizza place open at 11pm within walking distance of the job they're walking home from. Last, there are 26,000 restaurants in New York City. For people living in metropolitan areas, there are many options from which to choose. Fortunate people are not living in survival mode or using apps to seek minimum means of shelter (nod to Maslow and his hierarchy). The drivers in decision-making are more complex and could be a careful balance of any number of factors, such as convenience, speed, cost, acceptance, mood and so on. Add in entertainment, parks, museums, music venues, activities, and so forth - and personalized local search becomes increasingly valuable. If Foursquare can accomplish its goal and distill the signal from the noise, save people time, and allow them to have delightful experiences, then I would want it, and use it. Other people might, too, but I can't speak for them.

k-mcgrady 11y ago

I disagree. I don't know anyone who thought that gaming stuff was fun. It was silly and a waste of time. Foursquare now is great at recommendations - something people actually need. I don't think it was necessary to rip the checkins out of it and into Swarm but I think the people who actually found that fun and a vocal minority.

exstudent2 11y ago
My anecdotes are the complete opposite of yours :) My friends loved checking in and earning badges and none of them think the recommendations are great.
- k-mcgrady 11y ago
  :) Strange. I don't understand why they split the app. If they kept it together all our friends could have been happy.
  - slowernet 11y ago
    Some background on their rationale: https://medium.com/@noah_weiss/the-lego-block-exercise-4c7d60eeb38f https://medium.com/@noah_weiss/the-lego-block-exercise-4c7d6...
    - exstudent2 11y ago
      It reads like they keep wanting to back the product into their theories regardless of if there's a market for it or if their existing user base wanted those changes. My personal feeling was they discovered that the gamification angle was successful but the market wasn't huge so they got pressured into a change in direction to a (theoretically) larger market by their investors. All of these interviews and pontifications seem like justification for that move. It doesn't seem to have worked out well.
sandis 11y ago
It was silly, sure. But it worked and it encouraged people to check-in AND leave reviews. All of the reviews (or "tips" how they call it) I left were the ones I left after checking-in. Splitting Foursquare into two apps was a mistake. Nearly all of my friends have Swarm installed but most haven't kept the Foursquare app around. The functionality worked great in unison.
lnanek2 11y ago
The problem is I don't know anyone who wouldn't just use Yelp for recommendations, my wife being the closest example. Personally, I have no use for recommendations, but enjoy seeing my friends pictures and comments as they check in, so Foursquare as it is now is useless to me whereas before it had some interest and I caught some tech events I would have otherwise missed.

taylorwc 11y ago

I agree with a lot of your commentary, but think that Yelp is a horrible place to try to sift through shameless paid plugs and trolls. My experience is that 4sq has some of the highest signal-to-noise ratio of local reviews... for now.

exstudent2 11y ago
I actually use a mix of both and find that 4sq works better in some cities and Yelp in others. Both are pretty bad as far as reviews/tips go. I pretty much discount everything I read there. 4sq is nice because I can see which of my friends have been to a location, which is a lot more meaningful to me than some random person's opinion of a place. Ironically THAT feature has been downplayed in 4sq. After reading Crowley's interview, I guess it's because it's not part of the search vision. I would consider myself an outlier in terms of how much I go out and travel though. Most "regular people" I talk to maybe go out once a week to their favorite spot. I just don't think discovery is that large of a market.
- hobarrera 11y ago
  > After reading Crowley's interview, I guess it's because it's not part of the search vision. Which isn't really smart. Friends usually share a common taste, so if all my friends like some venue, any smart search engine would give priority to showing me that first.

vincentbarr 11y ago

>People don't want a "personalized local search engine" because there aren't millions of restaurants and bars around where they're at right now. It's just not that big of a problem to find a place to eat and yes, while they do an ok job helping out if you are looking for that, so does Yelp. Hm, I would wager that there is a considerable population of people who would want - and use - a personalized, local search engine, so long as it lived up to its promise. Second, people have preferences. My hunch is that people's criteria for finding a restaurant are more nuanced than simply '[finding] a place to eat', or a place that serves food. They may want to find a place with Thai food that's affordable, or an American restaurant with vegan options that rarely has a wait, or a pizza place open at 11pm within walking distance of the job they're walking home from. Last, there are 26,000 restaurants in New York City. For people living in metropolitan areas, there are many options from which to choose. Fortunate people are not living in survival mode or using apps to seek minimum means of shelter (nod to Maslow and his hierarchy). The drivers in decision-making are more complex and could be a careful balance of any number of factors, such as convenience, speed, cost, acceptance, mood and so on. Add in entertainment, parks, museums, music venues, activities, and so forth - and personalized local search becomes increasingly valuable. If Foursquare can accomplish its goal and distill the signal from the noise, save people time, and allow them to have delightful experiences, then I would want it, and use it. Other people might, too, but I can't speak for them.