7 ms·

In defense of Tor routers

48 points by simas 11y ago

dikaiosune 11y ago
I, for one, have completely resigned myself to the idea that my employer, government and neighbors know all of the most shameful elements of my Internet usage. I haven't yet seen an approach to the privacy problem that delivers acceptably anonymous results for acceptably low effort, while simultaneously leaving my connection speed and latency relatively intact. My experience with Tor was limited and was several years ago, but it felt like I'd returned to a 28k modem...except the entire Internet had begun to serve content on the implicit assumption that I at least had a few megabits of pipe. Do these routers actually offer a solid cornerstone of the kind of solution I've been waiting for?
- dewey 11y ago
  It's really not that slow any more, it's actually quite usable for regular browsing and if you catch a slow route a reconnect usually fixes that.
- robertfw 11y ago
  I wonder how much of this is solvable through re-engineering applications to assume high latency - preferably also adding in a fairly heavy dash of decentralization at the same time.
- mahyarm 11y ago
  Well a VPN would be a lazy way to limit it to just your govt. Now I need to figure out a way to have *.corp addresses not use VPN.
- middleclick 11y ago
  You should try out the network today. "Several years" ago was drastically different.
- mike-cardwell 11y ago
  If you haven't used Tor in several years, you're not really qualified to comment on the current state of Tor.
gorhill 11y ago
> we’ve been vocal about the need for people to use privacy add-ons with their web browsers This contradicts what I have read on the Tor Project site: "Site-specific or filter-based addons such as AdBlock Plus, Request Policy, Ghostery, Priv3, and Sharemenot are to be avoided."[1] [1] https://www.torproject.org/projects/torbrowser/design/#philosophy https://www.torproject.org/projects/torbrowser/design/#philo...
- striking 11y ago
  Because imperfect filtering can sometimes be worse than exposing yourself. Imperfect filtering can sometimes identify its users. That and filters will never be perfect.
- pstrateman 11y ago
  Filter-based addons leak at a minimum 1 bit of identifying information -- that the addon is installed. With something like RequestPolicy the specific policy in place likely uniquely identifies the user. Maintaining anonymity with a modern web browser is virtually impossible. Maintaining pseudonymity substantially less so, but you're probably identified as "user running tails version x"
  - alphapapa 11y ago
    But if you block JavaScript, a site can't detect whether certain third-party elements are loaded. So using RequestPolicy to also block third-party elements would then increase your anonymity, because it would prevent things like web bugs from leaking your browsing patterns outside of the first-party site. Right? Or would CSS tricks allow a first-party site to conditionally load elements and reveal your RequestPolicy policy? Sigh. :(
  - MichaelGG 11y ago
    Why/how do browsers allow sites to query the list of installed addons? That seems like it should very much be opt-in behaviour, that an addon would need to explicitly inject functionality to be discovered.
smutticus 11y ago
Both the original and this retort forget to consider that different users have different needs. Security is never going to be a 'one size fits all' kind of arrangement. Different users will find differing levels of utility in Tor routers.
gweinberg 11y ago
I'm a babe in the woods, but I had no idea that I was broadcasting my list of installed system fonts and browser plugins. But it seems to me that this kind of fingerprinting would be pretty easy to defeat if people new it was happening and wanted to defeat it. Something like panoticlick could give advic on fonts and plugins to add to lose yourself in the herd.
- logn 11y ago
  CSS media queries give away your font list (and screen dimensions). Tor Browser modified some internal code in Firefox to protect against this. Panopticlick is nice but it's not that advanced. (Much) more info: https://www.torproject.org/projects/torbrowser/design/ https://www.torproject.org/projects/torbrowser/design/
- plausibility 11y ago
  That's the point of Chameleon[1]. I've got it installed, and the issue is a lot of websites assume "oh, they don't have $plugin (e.g., Flash) installed", and don't fallback to something reasonable. So there are edge cases where you'd have to disable it. Otherwise, it's pretty effective. [1] https://github.com/ghostwords/chameleon https://github.com/ghostwords/chameleon
- bhayden 11y ago
  Uninstall Flash and Java (or disable browser use) and disable your browser reporting plugins (a single option change in FF) and you're pretty anonymous. Block JavaScript for untrusted sites and you're even better. Disconnect and Adblock even better.
tempestn 11y ago
Perhaps I'm missing something, but isn't the primary argument against Tor routers simply that it's a really bad idea to send all your traffic through Tor? You certainly don't want to be sending logins, banking data, etc., through some unknown exit node. I mean, presumably you can configure the router to only use the network for some traffic, but then what do you gain over using the Tor Browser bundle?
- ikeboy 11y ago
  If banking isn't using https, get a new bank.

48 points by simas 11y ago

I, for one, have completely resigned myself to the idea that my employer, government and neighbors know all of the most shameful elements of my Internet usage. I haven't yet seen an approach to the privacy problem that delivers acceptably anonymous results for acceptably low effort, while simultaneously leaving my connection speed and latency relatively intact. My experience with Tor was limited and was several years ago, but it felt like I'd returned to a 28k modem...except the entire Internet had begun to serve content on the implicit assumption that I at least had a few megabits of pipe. Do these routers actually offer a solid cornerstone of the kind of solution I've been waiting for?

dewey 11y ago
It's really not that slow any more, it's actually quite usable for regular browsing and if you catch a slow route a reconnect usually fixes that.
robertfw 11y ago
I wonder how much of this is solvable through re-engineering applications to assume high latency - preferably also adding in a fairly heavy dash of decentralization at the same time.
mahyarm 11y ago
Well a VPN would be a lazy way to limit it to just your govt. Now I need to figure out a way to have *.corp addresses not use VPN.
middleclick 11y ago
You should try out the network today. "Several years" ago was drastically different.
mike-cardwell 11y ago
If you haven't used Tor in several years, you're not really qualified to comment on the current state of Tor.

gorhill 11y ago

> we’ve been vocal about the need for people to use privacy add-ons with their web browsers This contradicts what I have read on the Tor Project site: "Site-specific or filter-based addons such as AdBlock Plus, Request Policy, Ghostery, Priv3, and Sharemenot are to be avoided."[1] [1] https://www.torproject.org/projects/torbrowser/design/#philosophy https://www.torproject.org/projects/torbrowser/design/#philo...

striking 11y ago
Because imperfect filtering can sometimes be worse than exposing yourself. Imperfect filtering can sometimes identify its users. That and filters will never be perfect.
pstrateman 11y ago
Filter-based addons leak at a minimum 1 bit of identifying information -- that the addon is installed. With something like RequestPolicy the specific policy in place likely uniquely identifies the user. Maintaining anonymity with a modern web browser is virtually impossible. Maintaining pseudonymity substantially less so, but you're probably identified as "user running tails version x"
- alphapapa 11y ago
  But if you block JavaScript, a site can't detect whether certain third-party elements are loaded. So using RequestPolicy to also block third-party elements would then increase your anonymity, because it would prevent things like web bugs from leaking your browsing patterns outside of the first-party site. Right? Or would CSS tricks allow a first-party site to conditionally load elements and reveal your RequestPolicy policy? Sigh. :(
- MichaelGG 11y ago
  Why/how do browsers allow sites to query the list of installed addons? That seems like it should very much be opt-in behaviour, that an addon would need to explicitly inject functionality to be discovered.

smutticus 11y ago

Both the original and this retort forget to consider that different users have different needs. Security is never going to be a 'one size fits all' kind of arrangement. Different users will find differing levels of utility in Tor routers.

gweinberg 11y ago

I'm a babe in the woods, but I had no idea that I was broadcasting my list of installed system fonts and browser plugins. But it seems to me that this kind of fingerprinting would be pretty easy to defeat if people new it was happening and wanted to defeat it. Something like panoticlick could give advic on fonts and plugins to add to lose yourself in the herd.

logn 11y ago
CSS media queries give away your font list (and screen dimensions). Tor Browser modified some internal code in Firefox to protect against this. Panopticlick is nice but it's not that advanced. (Much) more info: https://www.torproject.org/projects/torbrowser/design/ https://www.torproject.org/projects/torbrowser/design/
plausibility 11y ago
That's the point of Chameleon[1]. I've got it installed, and the issue is a lot of websites assume "oh, they don't have $plugin (e.g., Flash) installed", and don't fallback to something reasonable. So there are edge cases where you'd have to disable it. Otherwise, it's pretty effective. [1] https://github.com/ghostwords/chameleon https://github.com/ghostwords/chameleon
bhayden 11y ago
Uninstall Flash and Java (or disable browser use) and disable your browser reporting plugins (a single option change in FF) and you're pretty anonymous. Block JavaScript for untrusted sites and you're even better. Disconnect and Adblock even better.

tempestn 11y ago

Perhaps I'm missing something, but isn't the primary argument against Tor routers simply that it's a really bad idea to send all your traffic through Tor? You certainly don't want to be sending logins, banking data, etc., through some unknown exit node. I mean, presumably you can configure the router to only use the network for some traffic, but then what do you gain over using the Tor Browser bundle?

ikeboy 11y ago
If banking isn't using https, get a new bank.