4 ms·

This article is utterly hilarious. It's like a banquet of doublespeak. Remove cash from me and I will barter. I refuse to allow the bank to edge in on everyth

This article is utterly hilarious. It's like a banquet of doublespeak. Remove cash from me and I will barter. I refuse to allow the bank to edge in on everything I do. I want to pay my friend for painting my wall? I do it. I don't ask the bank, I don't deal with 'money laundering' nonsense, I don't pay PayPal fees... I just do it. Take that ability away and I'll start using gold or silver. Your move... 'Change is resisted'. Really? ... really? Yes, if you plan to change my facial structure via the mechanism of stamping with a boot I will resist that.

sspiff 12y ago
If there is no state-backed or state-issued currency, some other currency will fill the void. I wouldn't be hopeful about it being fair and not dominated by a handful of large players (like banks) though.
sjcsjc 12y ago
For those not familiar with the novel to which stegosaurus is referring (doublespeak, boot stamping) - http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Nineteen_Eighty-Four http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Nineteen_Eighty-Four Actually, I think it was newspeak and doublethink, but no matter.
- gjm11 12y ago
  It was, but I think "double-talk" is in the mix too. (OED: meaning 1 is "Deliberately unintelligible speech; speech that is a mixture of real and invented words; gibberish" and meaning 2 is "Verbal expression intended to be, or which may be, construed in more than one sense; deliberately ambiguous or imprecise language; used esp. of political language that is subject to arbitrary national or party interpretation". Meaning 1 is pre-1984, meaning 2 maybe not. Oh, and OED actually knows of "double-speak" too, with the same meaning as "double-talk" #2. I suspect stegosaurus wasn't explicitly intending a 1984 reference when s/he mentioned "doublespeak".)
  - stegosaurus 12y ago
    The reference is essentially to Orwell's general idea of euphemism in political language. The use of flowering prose where simple words would do, in order to misdirect. See 'Politics and the English Language'; just as relevant today as it ever was; 'racism'/'fascism'/etc as generic conversation enders for example. Apologies for the mix up!
miscellaneous 12y ago
>Take that ability away and I'll start using gold or silver. Your move... I imagine that this type of scenario would provide a strong incentive for people to start using digital currencies like Bitcoin - they have a finite supply and are much easier to transact and store than physical items like gold or silver.
- skywhopper 12y ago
  Bitcoin just feeds into the problem this article's proposal would exacerbate. Bitcoin is designed to be deflationary. There are a limited number of Bitcoins that will ever be produced. So as population and productivity grow, there is less and less currency to utilize for the necessary economic activity, and that economic activity would have to slow down. A Bitcoin-based economy would rapidly drain all capitalist incentive from the market.
  - miscellaneous 12y ago
    I'm not proposing that Bitcoin becomes a standard currency for the world economy, just that people might use it as a store of value if Governments tried to ban cash.
- Zikes 12y ago
  I appreciate the sentiment, but a currency that owes its existence to being as complicated as humanly possible can't really be described as "easy".
- logfromblammo 12y ago
  Gold and silver have the unenviable advantage of being immediately understood by absolutely everyone that has even a rudimentary knowledge of the history of commerce. Bitcoin still has to be explained.
harryh 12y ago
What's doublespeak about this? The problem where the Fed can't push interest rates below zero when the economy is doing especially poorly is well documented. He's simply proposing a solution to this problem. Sure, the downsides might outweigh the benefits but it's a fairly straightforward and obvious solution. Of course some people will barter or find other ways to store value than money but it seems to me that would still leave the Fed with more flexibility than it had before. Do you disagree that there is ever a need for negative nominal interest rates? Do you think there is a better solution than this one?
- nine_k 12y ago
  Europe has already pushed certain interest rates below zero. Let's see how well will it help the EU.
  - harryh 12y ago
    The EUs big problem is that they have a single currency covering many different countries with wildly different economies so it's very difficult (or impossible) to institute a monetary policy that is beneficial for all countries at the same time.
    - nine_k 12y ago
      Aren't the United States also a bunch of pretty diverse state-level economies? The US is more tightly integrated than the EU, but similarities are still strong (same currency, transparent borders, local governments + increasing federal oversight).
      - harryh 12y ago
        Sure, it can be a problem in the US as well. What's good for San Francisco might be different from what's good for a hollowed our rust belt city. But it's less of a problem in the US than in Europe. We at least have a common language. Culture differences are smaller. Tax and regulatory regimes don't vary as much. It's fundamentally easier to move from one city to another in the US than it is in Europe. This isn't just a hypothesis, it's supported by very clear data in labor mobility rates.
csirac2 12y ago
Yeah, but this article makes no sense for another reason: hardly any of the money supply is actually made up of cold hard cash! Less than 4% according to these 2004 stats: http://www.frbsf.org/education/publications/doctor-econ/2004/april/money-supply-currency-counterfeit http://www.frbsf.org/education/publications/doctor-econ/2004...
- mike_hearn 12y ago
  Their assumption is that if you have negative interest rates, people will withdraw money from banks as cash so that percentage will go up. Switzerland has recently entered this previously uncharted territory. It's leading to weird problems like banks being unable to process the new rates as the programmers assumed the world would never be so insane, and pension funds planning to withdraw their funds from banks and being outright denied access to their own money. There are persistent rumours about some funds thinking about building their own bunkers and storage areas for gold and cash, as they have an obligation to protect their investors funds and the SNB is now effectively confiscating people's pensions.
  - csirac2 12y ago
    Ok, except... Well I can't help but think that if they can create a crazy unicorn land of negative interest, surely by comparison the monetary policy option of keeping the mint idle would be a would be a walk in the park...
dimitar 12y ago
Cash is cash because the government says so. Gold and silver aren't good enough unless the government makes them legal tender and allows you to pay your taxes with it and starts paying its debts in them. Stamping a face with a boot is just a point of view if you consider this point. People and businesses are also crushed from unemployment and deflation because of government currency policy and is up to the government (democratically elected by you) to find a middle ground between all the different interests.

sspiff 12y ago

If there is no state-backed or state-issued currency, some other currency will fill the void. I wouldn't be hopeful about it being fair and not dominated by a handful of large players (like banks) though.

sjcsjc 12y ago

For those not familiar with the novel to which stegosaurus is referring (doublespeak, boot stamping) - http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Nineteen_Eighty-Four http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Nineteen_Eighty-Four Actually, I think it was newspeak and doublethink, but no matter.

gjm11 12y ago
It was, but I think "double-talk" is in the mix too. (OED: meaning 1 is "Deliberately unintelligible speech; speech that is a mixture of real and invented words; gibberish" and meaning 2 is "Verbal expression intended to be, or which may be, construed in more than one sense; deliberately ambiguous or imprecise language; used esp. of political language that is subject to arbitrary national or party interpretation". Meaning 1 is pre-1984, meaning 2 maybe not. Oh, and OED actually knows of "double-speak" too, with the same meaning as "double-talk" #2. I suspect stegosaurus wasn't explicitly intending a 1984 reference when s/he mentioned "doublespeak".)
- stegosaurus 12y ago
  The reference is essentially to Orwell's general idea of euphemism in political language. The use of flowering prose where simple words would do, in order to misdirect. See 'Politics and the English Language'; just as relevant today as it ever was; 'racism'/'fascism'/etc as generic conversation enders for example. Apologies for the mix up!

miscellaneous 12y ago

>Take that ability away and I'll start using gold or silver. Your move... I imagine that this type of scenario would provide a strong incentive for people to start using digital currencies like Bitcoin - they have a finite supply and are much easier to transact and store than physical items like gold or silver.

skywhopper 12y ago
Bitcoin just feeds into the problem this article's proposal would exacerbate. Bitcoin is designed to be deflationary. There are a limited number of Bitcoins that will ever be produced. So as population and productivity grow, there is less and less currency to utilize for the necessary economic activity, and that economic activity would have to slow down. A Bitcoin-based economy would rapidly drain all capitalist incentive from the market.
- miscellaneous 12y ago
  I'm not proposing that Bitcoin becomes a standard currency for the world economy, just that people might use it as a store of value if Governments tried to ban cash.
Zikes 12y ago
I appreciate the sentiment, but a currency that owes its existence to being as complicated as humanly possible can't really be described as "easy".
logfromblammo 12y ago
Gold and silver have the unenviable advantage of being immediately understood by absolutely everyone that has even a rudimentary knowledge of the history of commerce. Bitcoin still has to be explained.

harryh 12y ago

What's doublespeak about this? The problem where the Fed can't push interest rates below zero when the economy is doing especially poorly is well documented. He's simply proposing a solution to this problem. Sure, the downsides might outweigh the benefits but it's a fairly straightforward and obvious solution. Of course some people will barter or find other ways to store value than money but it seems to me that would still leave the Fed with more flexibility than it had before. Do you disagree that there is ever a need for negative nominal interest rates? Do you think there is a better solution than this one?

nine_k 12y ago
Europe has already pushed certain interest rates below zero. Let's see how well will it help the EU.
- harryh 12y ago
  The EUs big problem is that they have a single currency covering many different countries with wildly different economies so it's very difficult (or impossible) to institute a monetary policy that is beneficial for all countries at the same time.
  - nine_k 12y ago
    Aren't the United States also a bunch of pretty diverse state-level economies? The US is more tightly integrated than the EU, but similarities are still strong (same currency, transparent borders, local governments + increasing federal oversight).
    - harryh 12y ago
      Sure, it can be a problem in the US as well. What's good for San Francisco might be different from what's good for a hollowed our rust belt city. But it's less of a problem in the US than in Europe. We at least have a common language. Culture differences are smaller. Tax and regulatory regimes don't vary as much. It's fundamentally easier to move from one city to another in the US than it is in Europe. This isn't just a hypothesis, it's supported by very clear data in labor mobility rates.

csirac2 12y ago

Yeah, but this article makes no sense for another reason: hardly any of the money supply is actually made up of cold hard cash! Less than 4% according to these 2004 stats: http://www.frbsf.org/education/publications/doctor-econ/2004/april/money-supply-currency-counterfeit http://www.frbsf.org/education/publications/doctor-econ/2004...

mike_hearn 12y ago
Their assumption is that if you have negative interest rates, people will withdraw money from banks as cash so that percentage will go up. Switzerland has recently entered this previously uncharted territory. It's leading to weird problems like banks being unable to process the new rates as the programmers assumed the world would never be so insane, and pension funds planning to withdraw their funds from banks and being outright denied access to their own money. There are persistent rumours about some funds thinking about building their own bunkers and storage areas for gold and cash, as they have an obligation to protect their investors funds and the SNB is now effectively confiscating people's pensions.
- csirac2 12y ago
  Ok, except... Well I can't help but think that if they can create a crazy unicorn land of negative interest, surely by comparison the monetary policy option of keeping the mint idle would be a would be a walk in the park...

dimitar 12y ago

Cash is cash because the government says so. Gold and silver aren't good enough unless the government makes them legal tender and allows you to pay your taxes with it and starts paying its debts in them. Stamping a face with a boot is just a point of view if you consider this point. People and businesses are also crushed from unemployment and deflation because of government currency policy and is up to the government (democratically elected by you) to find a middle ground between all the different interests.