5 ms·

Ancestry has a borderline monopoly on web-based genealogy, and unfortunately doesn't seem to be a very good steward for that data. Generally, the genealogy com

by basseq 11y ago

Ancestry has a borderline monopoly on web-based genealogy, and unfortunately doesn't seem to be a very good steward for that data. Generally, the genealogy community is very open and sharing. Distant relatives (n cousins nth removed) will spend hours helping you out. Random people will go to local libraries or town halls to pull hard copies of vital records. LDS has one of the largest free genealogy libraries in the world. Then here comes Ancestry. $240/yr. to use their software, which puts everything you do behind a paywall. Want to share your family tree with others? They have to pay Ancestry for the privilege. There's serious value in digitized records that might well be worth the subscription fee alone. But these are public records that Ancestry has bought the exclusive rights to digitize. They're aggressively monetizing public data while shutting out competition. It's great that family history is so easy for the masses, but I'm worried the long-term future is going to be silo'd and less effective in the long run.

suninwinter 11y ago
You can get the subscription fee waived if you join the LDS Church. https://familysearch.org/blog/en/create-free-account-familysearch-partners/ https://familysearch.org/blog/en/create-free-account-familys...
- Someone1234 11y ago
  How do they verify you're LDS?
  - suninwinter 11y ago
    You ask the membership clerk of your ward for your membership number, which you use to upgrade your familysearch.org account to an LDS account. Then ancestry.com uses OAuth to get access to your familysearch account.
  - gliese1337 11y ago
    They ask the Church's servers. The Church is meticulous about good record keeping (which is what makes them so good at genealogy in the first place), and every official member of the LDS church has a unique member identification number, used for things like tracking donations, ordinance records, and, of course, genealogy. Nowadays, the vast majority of these records are digitized and you can access them online through Church-owned-and-operated websites. If you happen not to be in the system yet (maybe you were baptized in the jungles of New Guinea and have only just made it back to civilization), it's pretty simple to meet up with a bishop or clerk who can verify your paper records and tell you what your membership number is, which will let you set up an account on Church websites. So, to summarize, the Church knows who its members are, and knows how to associate them with online identities. When one of them wants free access to Ancestry.com, it's basically the same process as "Sign in with Google" and such- you tell Ancestry that you're LDS, Ancestry asks the Church's servers if you're telling the truth, and the Church's authentication system teels Ancestry to let you in.
- dguaraglia 11y ago
  Sounds like a pretty steep price, eternal damnation for $240 :P
ra88it 11y ago
> But these are public records that Ancestry has bought the exclusive rights to digitize. What exclusive rights are you referring to? I'm trying to learn more about Ancestry.com.
- Asparagirl 11y ago
  Philadelphia BMD. New York State Census records (State off-year, not Federal). Swedish BMD (previously available online, then pulled down). Czech BMD (ditto). The list goes on... Check the genealogy blogs, of which there are many, for details.
Lawtonfogle 11y ago
Ancestry was given that monopoly by their users. Served up to them on a silver platter. Without Ancestry, some other business would have come along as long as the users are so willing to put their work behind a paywall. The core fault lies with the users who are willing to do such.
- spacemanmatt 11y ago
  Victim-blaming, eh.
  - Lawtonfogle 11y ago
    How in the world is being the victim of a crime against your will similar to choosing to buy and use a pay-walled product? Especially for a service that isn't fulfilling some need?
    - VienneseCPA 11y ago
      It's not literally. But the HN ethos is that users lack agency and are thus not responsible for their actions.
      - spacemanmatt 11y ago
        I don't agree with your characterization of the HN ethos. I would suggest the ethos is a little closer to users lack collectivization, and we're talking about how a service provider has taken advantage of that. It's a social question, not a legal one.
      - Lawtonfogle 11y ago
        They are consenting adults, no? That they optimize for short term gain ignoring long term costs should be their own responsibility.
      - jacquesm 11y ago
        In the case of ancestry it is not just their users, but also the users extended family. One of my relatives found it necessary to put me in there and I've had a really hard time to get them to delete me.
toomuchtodo 11y ago
I guess its time for us to put together "Open Ancestry".
- Someone1234 11y ago
  That's fine, but someone has to physically go to the records office and scan in thousands of documents to be digitised. That's the problem with Ancestry, they have a massive digital archive and the funds to keep growing it. Some copies of the census are digitised already, but the further you go back the less likely that is. And a lot of the information people want originates abroad (e.g. UK, Germany, Italy, France, etc).
  - toomuchtodo 11y ago
    So, I might have some insight into this. I'm working with an organization to collect real estate parcel data for the entire US and open source it. I track every county or district that has parcel data, I built a workflow to get the data from them, manage the ingest of the data, and a separate workflow if they're difficult and I have to FOIA them for it (via muckrock.com). There is a cost, but as always, everything has a cost. Same deal, but closer to what Distributed Proofreaders for Project Gutenberg does with scanning. It can be done. Funds and organization would be necessary, but let's not think its some herculean task.
  - Asparagirl 11y ago
    You don't actually need to scan all the images, just transcribe the main points of the data (names, dates, places), make that data searchable, and then provide information about how a user could go about ordering a copy of the original data if needed.
    - gsnedders 11y ago
      Transcription errors are very much a problem, though, especially when you're dealing with faded or smudged ink. Scanning the images allows people to verify the transcription and to distribute the work of doing the transcription.

by basseq 11y ago

suninwinter 11y ago

You can get the subscription fee waived if you join the LDS Church. https://familysearch.org/blog/en/create-free-account-familysearch-partners/ https://familysearch.org/blog/en/create-free-account-familys...

Someone1234 11y ago
How do they verify you're LDS?
- suninwinter 11y ago
  You ask the membership clerk of your ward for your membership number, which you use to upgrade your familysearch.org account to an LDS account. Then ancestry.com uses OAuth to get access to your familysearch account.
- gliese1337 11y ago
  They ask the Church's servers. The Church is meticulous about good record keeping (which is what makes them so good at genealogy in the first place), and every official member of the LDS church has a unique member identification number, used for things like tracking donations, ordinance records, and, of course, genealogy. Nowadays, the vast majority of these records are digitized and you can access them online through Church-owned-and-operated websites. If you happen not to be in the system yet (maybe you were baptized in the jungles of New Guinea and have only just made it back to civilization), it's pretty simple to meet up with a bishop or clerk who can verify your paper records and tell you what your membership number is, which will let you set up an account on Church websites. So, to summarize, the Church knows who its members are, and knows how to associate them with online identities. When one of them wants free access to Ancestry.com, it's basically the same process as "Sign in with Google" and such- you tell Ancestry that you're LDS, Ancestry asks the Church's servers if you're telling the truth, and the Church's authentication system teels Ancestry to let you in.
dguaraglia 11y ago
Sounds like a pretty steep price, eternal damnation for $240 :P

ra88it 11y ago

> But these are public records that Ancestry has bought the exclusive rights to digitize. What exclusive rights are you referring to? I'm trying to learn more about Ancestry.com.

Asparagirl 11y ago
Philadelphia BMD. New York State Census records (State off-year, not Federal). Swedish BMD (previously available online, then pulled down). Czech BMD (ditto). The list goes on... Check the genealogy blogs, of which there are many, for details.

Lawtonfogle 11y ago

Ancestry was given that monopoly by their users. Served up to them on a silver platter. Without Ancestry, some other business would have come along as long as the users are so willing to put their work behind a paywall. The core fault lies with the users who are willing to do such.

spacemanmatt 11y ago
Victim-blaming, eh.
- Lawtonfogle 11y ago
  How in the world is being the victim of a crime against your will similar to choosing to buy and use a pay-walled product? Especially for a service that isn't fulfilling some need?
  - VienneseCPA 11y ago
    It's not literally. But the HN ethos is that users lack agency and are thus not responsible for their actions.
    - spacemanmatt 11y ago
      I don't agree with your characterization of the HN ethos. I would suggest the ethos is a little closer to users lack collectivization, and we're talking about how a service provider has taken advantage of that. It's a social question, not a legal one.
    - Lawtonfogle 11y ago
      They are consenting adults, no? That they optimize for short term gain ignoring long term costs should be their own responsibility.
    - jacquesm 11y ago
      In the case of ancestry it is not just their users, but also the users extended family. One of my relatives found it necessary to put me in there and I've had a really hard time to get them to delete me.

toomuchtodo 11y ago

I guess its time for us to put together "Open Ancestry".

Someone1234 11y ago
That's fine, but someone has to physically go to the records office and scan in thousands of documents to be digitised. That's the problem with Ancestry, they have a massive digital archive and the funds to keep growing it. Some copies of the census are digitised already, but the further you go back the less likely that is. And a lot of the information people want originates abroad (e.g. UK, Germany, Italy, France, etc).
- toomuchtodo 11y ago
  So, I might have some insight into this. I'm working with an organization to collect real estate parcel data for the entire US and open source it. I track every county or district that has parcel data, I built a workflow to get the data from them, manage the ingest of the data, and a separate workflow if they're difficult and I have to FOIA them for it (via muckrock.com). There is a cost, but as always, everything has a cost. Same deal, but closer to what Distributed Proofreaders for Project Gutenberg does with scanning. It can be done. Funds and organization would be necessary, but let's not think its some herculean task.
- Asparagirl 11y ago
  You don't actually need to scan all the images, just transcribe the main points of the data (names, dates, places), make that data searchable, and then provide information about how a user could go about ordering a copy of the original data if needed.
  - gsnedders 11y ago
    Transcription errors are very much a problem, though, especially when you're dealing with faded or smudged ink. Scanning the images allows people to verify the transcription and to distribute the work of doing the transcription.