10 ms·

Holy crap, the LWN comments are extremely vitriolic. I have stayed away from the systemd hatred - is it still a huge issue?

elwin 12y ago
The current kdbus controversy is unrelated to systemd, as far as I can tell.
- comex 12y ago
  The motive for kdbus came from the systemd project: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2013-March/009797.html http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2013-Mar...
  - XorNot 12y ago
    And as stated in the article the concept is a good deal older then that with as storied a history at every turn.
  - sciurus 12y ago
    The motive and possible solutions goes back further that systemd; see https://lwn.net/Articles/551969/ https://lwn.net/Articles/551969/
- bandrami 12y ago
  Systemd is why kdbus is even being talked about (personally, I think it's a crazy idea, but then I don't use dbus even on my desktop), and the two projects share a lot of developers.
anonbanker 12y ago
the users are collectively not happy with the choices their representatives are making. Especially when this choice compromises the GPL itself (Non-free software/modules/derivatives communicating over RPC to GPL'd libraries via systemd is a violation of the license), and GNU principles. I have high hopes for Devuan and other non-systemd distros, but I never discount the docility of linux users en masse, and hold the opinion that once systemd got into debian, it would never get out again. I am personally running a systemd-free arch linux install, and am switching all my machines to either Gentoo or OpenBSD, depending on use, in order to avoid systemd (or NetworkManager, or PulseAudio) being installed. I'm a tad more militant than most, though.
- digi_owl 12y ago
  I fear they are fighting a uphill battle, as even Canonical has bowed to the RH backed project.
  - anonbanker 12y ago
    When has GNU ever not faced an uphill battle? :-)
rdc12 12y ago
LWN comments are generally pretty polite, I am really surprised that those sort of comments happened recenently on LWN
- anonbanker 12y ago
  when systemd/networkmanager/pulseaudio are involved, the freedesktop.org brigade comes to defend the honor of their favorite developers, and the discussion is effectively ruined. We can now probably add kdbus to the above list of volatile apps.
  - bitwize 12y ago
    I think it's more like when systemd/networkmanager/pulseaudio are involved, the hater horde comes out to tear down the hard work of developers without offering any viable alternatives. Dbus is the future of system integration in Linux. Period. The Unix philosophy sucks; real integration is done with the COM philosophy of looking up and invoking services by name and sending messages and calling methods on them as they run. The reason why we even have a systemd is to integrate the essential system bits -- startup, device and service management, user login and session management, etc. with the dbus fabric, providing application developers with an API to call into them. Unfortunately it meant rewriting fucking everything, but Lennart, Kay, and company rolled up their sleeves, did the work, and got it pushed into mainstream distros. What the fuck have you done lately?
    - ehvatum 12y ago
      If I were Lennart, Kay, and company, I would not want the sort of "support" you are offering, here. If they do enjoy and encourage it, something is very wrong.
    - jude- 12y ago
      > hater horde comes out to tear down the hard work of developers without offering any viable alternatives. No comment on the "haters," but your argument precludes the possibility that some users are happy with their current installations, and do not want an alternative. > What the fuck have you done lately? I'm writing a udev replacement [1]. Not because I want to re-invent the wheel, but because the wheel I was using got taken away. [1] https://git.devuan.org/pkgs-utopia-substitution/vdev/blob/master/README.md https://git.devuan.org/pkgs-utopia-substitution/vdev/blob/ma...
bandrami 12y ago
I have stayed away from the systemd hatred - is it still a huge issue? Not for me, I use Slackware and don't want dbus or a QR code generator linked in to my init system. I think the misadventures of udev set a whole lot of people off to start looking for every possible conspiracy theory they could find. Personally, I don't "hate" systemd; it's a probably-interesting solution to problems I just don't have.
- digi_owl 12y ago
  The "major" issue is the tighter and tighter coupling between init and desktop login thanks to systemd-logind+"bunch of Freedesktop.org kits"+gnome (and with Wayland +KDE). Eventually you have to go back to using FVWM for your GUI needs if you don't want to do a wholesale userspace-ectomy on a perfectly functional distro. Never mind avoiding anything GTK or Qt based, as they are likely to depend on some lib form Gnome or KDE that in turn depend on something tied to the hip of systemd. Seriously people, logind is at present in charge of handling the likes of laptop lid closure. If that does not bring out the WTFs, i dunno what will.
  - bandrami 12y ago
    Seriously people, logind is at present in charge of handling the likes of laptop lid closure. It's sure as hell not for me; I still have never booted with systemd. If people choose a distribution in which it does, I wish them luck with that. It probably does solve multiple problems; like I keep saying they are just problems I don't have.
    - bitwize 12y ago
      The point is that even if you haven't booted with systemd -- you will. Tge desktop and GUI software of the future will depend on the integration it provides.

elwin 12y ago

The current kdbus controversy is unrelated to systemd, as far as I can tell.

comex 12y ago
The motive for kdbus came from the systemd project: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2013-March/009797.html http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2013-Mar...
- XorNot 12y ago
  And as stated in the article the concept is a good deal older then that with as storied a history at every turn.
- sciurus 12y ago
  The motive and possible solutions goes back further that systemd; see https://lwn.net/Articles/551969/ https://lwn.net/Articles/551969/
bandrami 12y ago
Systemd is why kdbus is even being talked about (personally, I think it's a crazy idea, but then I don't use dbus even on my desktop), and the two projects share a lot of developers.

anonbanker 12y ago

the users are collectively not happy with the choices their representatives are making. Especially when this choice compromises the GPL itself (Non-free software/modules/derivatives communicating over RPC to GPL'd libraries via systemd is a violation of the license), and GNU principles. I have high hopes for Devuan and other non-systemd distros, but I never discount the docility of linux users en masse, and hold the opinion that once systemd got into debian, it would never get out again. I am personally running a systemd-free arch linux install, and am switching all my machines to either Gentoo or OpenBSD, depending on use, in order to avoid systemd (or NetworkManager, or PulseAudio) being installed. I'm a tad more militant than most, though.

digi_owl 12y ago
I fear they are fighting a uphill battle, as even Canonical has bowed to the RH backed project.
- anonbanker 12y ago
  When has GNU ever not faced an uphill battle? :-)

rdc12 12y ago

LWN comments are generally pretty polite, I am really surprised that those sort of comments happened recenently on LWN

anonbanker 12y ago
when systemd/networkmanager/pulseaudio are involved, the freedesktop.org brigade comes to defend the honor of their favorite developers, and the discussion is effectively ruined. We can now probably add kdbus to the above list of volatile apps.
- bitwize 12y ago
  I think it's more like when systemd/networkmanager/pulseaudio are involved, the hater horde comes out to tear down the hard work of developers without offering any viable alternatives. Dbus is the future of system integration in Linux. Period. The Unix philosophy sucks; real integration is done with the COM philosophy of looking up and invoking services by name and sending messages and calling methods on them as they run. The reason why we even have a systemd is to integrate the essential system bits -- startup, device and service management, user login and session management, etc. with the dbus fabric, providing application developers with an API to call into them. Unfortunately it meant rewriting fucking everything, but Lennart, Kay, and company rolled up their sleeves, did the work, and got it pushed into mainstream distros. What the fuck have you done lately?
  - ehvatum 12y ago
    If I were Lennart, Kay, and company, I would not want the sort of "support" you are offering, here. If they do enjoy and encourage it, something is very wrong.
  - jude- 12y ago
    > hater horde comes out to tear down the hard work of developers without offering any viable alternatives. No comment on the "haters," but your argument precludes the possibility that some users are happy with their current installations, and do not want an alternative. > What the fuck have you done lately? I'm writing a udev replacement [1]. Not because I want to re-invent the wheel, but because the wheel I was using got taken away. [1] https://git.devuan.org/pkgs-utopia-substitution/vdev/blob/master/README.md https://git.devuan.org/pkgs-utopia-substitution/vdev/blob/ma...

bandrami 12y ago

I have stayed away from the systemd hatred - is it still a huge issue? Not for me, I use Slackware and don't want dbus or a QR code generator linked in to my init system. I think the misadventures of udev set a whole lot of people off to start looking for every possible conspiracy theory they could find. Personally, I don't "hate" systemd; it's a probably-interesting solution to problems I just don't have.

digi_owl 12y ago
The "major" issue is the tighter and tighter coupling between init and desktop login thanks to systemd-logind+"bunch of Freedesktop.org kits"+gnome (and with Wayland +KDE). Eventually you have to go back to using FVWM for your GUI needs if you don't want to do a wholesale userspace-ectomy on a perfectly functional distro. Never mind avoiding anything GTK or Qt based, as they are likely to depend on some lib form Gnome or KDE that in turn depend on something tied to the hip of systemd. Seriously people, logind is at present in charge of handling the likes of laptop lid closure. If that does not bring out the WTFs, i dunno what will.
- bandrami 12y ago
  Seriously people, logind is at present in charge of handling the likes of laptop lid closure. It's sure as hell not for me; I still have never booted with systemd. If people choose a distribution in which it does, I wish them luck with that. It probably does solve multiple problems; like I keep saying they are just problems I don't have.
  - bitwize 12y ago
    The point is that even if you haven't booted with systemd -- you will. Tge desktop and GUI software of the future will depend on the integration it provides.