7 ms·

Regardless if it is true in this particular case, the real big red flag is in the final sentences: > The lawsuit notes that Google’s Diversity webpage does not

Regardless if it is true in this particular case, the real big red flag is in the final sentences: > The lawsuit notes that Google’s Diversity webpage does not include age-related workforce data, despite disclosing data about other worker characteristics. Other tech companies releasing workforce diversity data did not typically disclose age data either. The entire industry really trying hard to cover up the issue.

gaius 11y ago
I expect that economics of many of these companies doesn't work with people doing 35 or 40 hours a week. Which means that all these castles are built on sand because this will catch up with them.
- michaelochurch 11y ago
  I expect that economics of many of these companies doesn't work with people doing 35 or 40 hours a week. I doubt it. Google would be just fine if 99% of employees limited themselves to 40-hour weeks. People aren't productive-- not in the long term-- when pushed to work longer hours. The age issue isn't about work hours; besides, I know plenty of older people who work quite a lot. It's about pliability, deference to authority, and not knowing what they're worth. There's also a bit of union-related fear in it. I think that the likelihood of Google unionizing is very low, but Silicon Valley's leaders are terrified of collective bargaining arrangements (even if they come in a form like the lightweight unions of Hollywood for actors and writers) and one of the best ways to prevent that is to avoid hiring older, seasoned people with the organizational skills and experience to pull it off. Age discrimination also puts a harmful time pressure on workers. It encourages to take career risks (and, often, those risks are unwise for them) because, at least as things are presented to them, they have to do everything in the first third of a normal career or they will be cast aside. It's much easier to push someone into bad decisions (or, I should say, decisions where he'll defer to your expertise because he's out of his depth and scared) if you convince him that he'll probably never get another chance to be a founder, learn a new technology, program again, etc. I look forward to the outcome of this suit. There's bound to be more gold dug up in discovery than there was for Ellen Pao. I hope it doesn't end in a settlement, because I want this issue to see enough air to set off a chain reaction and crush this age discrimination problem. After all, we're all going to get old.
  - gaius 11y ago
    People aren't productive-- not in the long term-- when pushed to work longer hours. Sure, but this business model doesn't care about that. Get people in, work them 'til they're burnt out, then get new people.
    - hn_ 11y ago
      And what exactly makes you think that's google's business model?
- natrius 11y ago
  A quick glance at Google's profit per employee disproves that. After paying for employees and everything else, Google profits $270,123 per employee. I'm not sure what would make you think that some of the most profitable companies in history are castles built on sand.
  - dennisnedry 11y ago
    Mind explaining how you got that number? Not being snarky, just curious.
    - natrius 11y ago
      Googled it.
    - steinnes 11y ago
      Yeah I'm curious too. I however looked up how many employees they had in 2014 (http://www.statista.com/statistics/273744/number-of-full-time-google-employees/ http://www.statista.com/statistics/273744/number-of-full-tim...), and their quarterly reports for 2014 (https://www.google.com/finance?fstype=ii&q=NASDAQ:GOOG https://www.google.com/finance?fstype=ii&q=NASDAQ:GOOG), and got that they profited in the ballpark of 13-14 billion, and had 47,756 employees, so their profits would be somewhere between 270 and 290 thousand USD per employee. I'm not good enough at reading these quarterly reports to be surer than this :-) .. and on that note, having the age data of 823 employees from payscale.com seems a rather small sample set for a company of ~50k employees. I also wonder what kind of bias the source introduces, ie. whether your interest in your salary is different based on your age (I don't know).
    - ChuckMcM 11y ago
      No idea how he got it but you can do this from their earnings statement yesterday [1]: Free cash flow $3.69B, total employees 55,419 $66,583 per employee of free cash flow (that is simply money they deposited in the bank) or GAAP Net Income $3.556B for $64,166 per employee in net income. I believe the $270K/employee is long gone and won't be seen again. [1] http://investor.google.com/earnings/2015/Q1_google_earnings.html http://investor.google.com/earnings/2015/Q1_google_earnings....
- munificent 11y ago
  I don't understand where the idea that Googlers work tons of hours comes from. I work exactly 40 hours and have done overtime something like three or four times (as in, three or four days) in the five years I've been at Google. By 6:30, the office is a ghost town. Maybe Mountain View is different, but the Seattle office has a pretty fantastic work-life balance as far as I can tell.
- jusben1369 11y ago
  I question the suggestion that all engineers at huge companies like Google are pulling these massive hours. Secondly, that only people under x age will work more than 40 hours. Empty nesters start around 50 and are some of the most time flexible people you'll ever meet.
- ojbyrne 11y ago
  Thinking that only younger people work long hours is also a subtle form of age discrimination (and not true). I'm sitting in an office at 6pm and everyone under 40 is headed to a bar. I looked around and things currently reflect the median age mentioned in the article.
notsony 11y ago
Yes, this. Everybody talks about diversity but nobody mentions age. For example Reddit CEO Ellen Pao declared to the WSJ that she is on a crusade to hire for diversity - yet not once does she talk about "age". > She has eliminated salary negotiations from the hiring process because women often end up fairing worse in terms of pay. She has hired a well-known diversity consultant to advise Reddit. She has passed over candidates who are not committed to gender and racial diversity, according to the interview. http://money.cnn.com/2015/04/06/technology/ellen-pao-reddit-diversity/ http://money.cnn.com/2015/04/06/technology/ellen-pao-reddit-...

gaius 11y ago

I expect that economics of many of these companies doesn't work with people doing 35 or 40 hours a week. Which means that all these castles are built on sand because this will catch up with them.

michaelochurch 11y ago
I expect that economics of many of these companies doesn't work with people doing 35 or 40 hours a week. I doubt it. Google would be just fine if 99% of employees limited themselves to 40-hour weeks. People aren't productive-- not in the long term-- when pushed to work longer hours. The age issue isn't about work hours; besides, I know plenty of older people who work quite a lot. It's about pliability, deference to authority, and not knowing what they're worth. There's also a bit of union-related fear in it. I think that the likelihood of Google unionizing is very low, but Silicon Valley's leaders are terrified of collective bargaining arrangements (even if they come in a form like the lightweight unions of Hollywood for actors and writers) and one of the best ways to prevent that is to avoid hiring older, seasoned people with the organizational skills and experience to pull it off. Age discrimination also puts a harmful time pressure on workers. It encourages to take career risks (and, often, those risks are unwise for them) because, at least as things are presented to them, they have to do everything in the first third of a normal career or they will be cast aside. It's much easier to push someone into bad decisions (or, I should say, decisions where he'll defer to your expertise because he's out of his depth and scared) if you convince him that he'll probably never get another chance to be a founder, learn a new technology, program again, etc. I look forward to the outcome of this suit. There's bound to be more gold dug up in discovery than there was for Ellen Pao. I hope it doesn't end in a settlement, because I want this issue to see enough air to set off a chain reaction and crush this age discrimination problem. After all, we're all going to get old.
- gaius 11y ago
  People aren't productive-- not in the long term-- when pushed to work longer hours. Sure, but this business model doesn't care about that. Get people in, work them 'til they're burnt out, then get new people.
  - hn_ 11y ago
    And what exactly makes you think that's google's business model?
natrius 11y ago
A quick glance at Google's profit per employee disproves that. After paying for employees and everything else, Google profits $270,123 per employee. I'm not sure what would make you think that some of the most profitable companies in history are castles built on sand.
- dennisnedry 11y ago
  Mind explaining how you got that number? Not being snarky, just curious.
  - natrius 11y ago
    Googled it.
  - steinnes 11y ago
    Yeah I'm curious too. I however looked up how many employees they had in 2014 (http://www.statista.com/statistics/273744/number-of-full-time-google-employees/ http://www.statista.com/statistics/273744/number-of-full-tim...), and their quarterly reports for 2014 (https://www.google.com/finance?fstype=ii&q=NASDAQ:GOOG https://www.google.com/finance?fstype=ii&q=NASDAQ:GOOG), and got that they profited in the ballpark of 13-14 billion, and had 47,756 employees, so their profits would be somewhere between 270 and 290 thousand USD per employee. I'm not good enough at reading these quarterly reports to be surer than this :-) .. and on that note, having the age data of 823 employees from payscale.com seems a rather small sample set for a company of ~50k employees. I also wonder what kind of bias the source introduces, ie. whether your interest in your salary is different based on your age (I don't know).
  - ChuckMcM 11y ago
    No idea how he got it but you can do this from their earnings statement yesterday [1]: Free cash flow $3.69B, total employees 55,419 $66,583 per employee of free cash flow (that is simply money they deposited in the bank) or GAAP Net Income $3.556B for $64,166 per employee in net income. I believe the $270K/employee is long gone and won't be seen again. [1] http://investor.google.com/earnings/2015/Q1_google_earnings.html http://investor.google.com/earnings/2015/Q1_google_earnings....
munificent 11y ago
I don't understand where the idea that Googlers work tons of hours comes from. I work exactly 40 hours and have done overtime something like three or four times (as in, three or four days) in the five years I've been at Google. By 6:30, the office is a ghost town. Maybe Mountain View is different, but the Seattle office has a pretty fantastic work-life balance as far as I can tell.
jusben1369 11y ago
I question the suggestion that all engineers at huge companies like Google are pulling these massive hours. Secondly, that only people under x age will work more than 40 hours. Empty nesters start around 50 and are some of the most time flexible people you'll ever meet.
ojbyrne 11y ago
Thinking that only younger people work long hours is also a subtle form of age discrimination (and not true). I'm sitting in an office at 6pm and everyone under 40 is headed to a bar. I looked around and things currently reflect the median age mentioned in the article.

notsony 11y ago

Yes, this. Everybody talks about diversity but nobody mentions age. For example Reddit CEO Ellen Pao declared to the WSJ that she is on a crusade to hire for diversity - yet not once does she talk about "age". > She has eliminated salary negotiations from the hiring process because women often end up fairing worse in terms of pay. She has hired a well-known diversity consultant to advise Reddit. She has passed over candidates who are not committed to gender and racial diversity, according to the interview. http://money.cnn.com/2015/04/06/technology/ellen-pao-reddit-diversity/ http://money.cnn.com/2015/04/06/technology/ellen-pao-reddit-...