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I think this is a real indicator and validation of what the next economy will look like: humans at the apex of the arts, where imagination and craft will be hig

I think this is a real indicator and validation of what the next economy will look like: humans at the apex of the arts, where imagination and craft will be highly valued in the everyday folk worker, and mundane or trivial tasks will be assigned to automatons. We will choose our own employment adventure.

nosuchthing 11y ago
...If we build framework to support such an economy, it may be possible.
- TeMPOraL 11y ago
  That's the crux of the issue. It seems that the current economy will rather drive itself to the ground, taking all of humanity with it, rather than transitioning itself to a different value system. It looks like the post-scarcity world is not on the phase-space trajectory we're currently following.
  - nosuchthing 11y ago
    On a macro scale it's momentum and incentives at play. Daunting, but malleable. Locally, we're close to achieving sensible cities/communities with renewable energy, easier access to rapid prototyping, and worker co-op business models. Do what you can with what you have to make your city and friends have access to healthy enjoyable lives.
    - pavedwalden 11y ago
      From where I'm sitting, it doesn't look like we're remotely close. Renewable energy and effective urban planning are not at all common, and worker co-op business models are quite rare. I like your vision of the future, but I don't see much evidence that we're headed there.
  - willholloway 11y ago
    Right now I feel every reason to be gratuitously optimistic. - Solar photo-voltaic is or is about to be the cheapest form of electricity, we will solve the storage problem - Electric cars are getting closer to the tipping point, and they are going to drive themselves - Biotech is making incredible gains, see cancer immunotherapy or NSI-189 - The pace of technological innovation has accelerated and continues - The intellectual capital of the human race has never been anywhere near this large, free, accessible - Robots/a lot of weak AI is or is about to get to a point to change the game
    - cauterized 11y ago
      We're on trajectory technologically but not sociologically.
      - nosuchthing 11y ago
        "We eat in restaurants, buy branded toiletries, build skyscrapers, create legislative institutions, travel in flying machines, write poetry, and search for meaning in relationships, temples, and scientific books. Humans have discovered antibiotics, sent probes into space, decimated rainforests, shared a billion views of clips of kitten behaviour, and decoded their own genomes. But there is one thing that humans have singularly failed to do, and that is to properly understand their own behaviour. " — Robert Aunger and Valerie Curtis: Gaining Control: How human behavior evolved [0] https://global.oup.com/academic/product/gaining-control-9780199688951?cc=us&lang=en& https://global.oup.com/academic/product/gaining-control-9780...
  - ArkyBeagle 11y ago
    It's hubris to say this, but we're not as far off as you might think. If "they" can fix economics ( big if ) that alone would make a big difference. But the US only got off the gold standard in my lifetime. There's a Churchill quote about Americans; I think it generalizes to humans - "Americans can always be counted on to do the right thing…after they have exhausted all other possibilities."
frandroid 11y ago
To enable that, we need to have an economic system that redistributes the resources so that we can all have a shot a living a decent life, reducing the working hours of the many rather than the wealth of the few. Has there been a time in history where so many people have been working so much for so little?
- abduhl 11y ago
  Of course there's been a time in history where so many people have been working so much for so little. Plantation owners used to work their slaves from dawn till dusk for nothing. Farmers used to work the land from sun up to sun down just to feed their family. What a ridiculous question. Why do so many people think that times have never been so bad when, in all honesty, times have never been so good?
  - harryh 11y ago
    Because we used to live in the garden of eden where everything was perfect, but then we sinned against god and if we don't repent we're all going to hell. I'm joking a little but I'm also serious. I kind of think that humans are somewhat hardwired to think this way given that so many people believe some version of this story.
  - icebraining 11y ago
    Because the specific subset of people who post in these forums, mostly middle-class North Americans and Europeans, are worse off than a couple of decades ago - coupled with the fact that the type of jobs that are lifting hundreds of millions out of poverty make us feel dirty and self-righteous.
  - frandroid 11y ago
    Worldwide, there are more people in slavery today than there was when slavery was legal. Plus all kinds of manufacturing quasi-slavery in south and south-east asia with crazy hours.
- brc 11y ago
  It's not clear. Are you advocating for socialism?
steamy 11y ago
The problem is the current size of the world population is designed and fit for the Industrial Age and not for the Information Age. What do you suggest we have to do to the "surplus" of manpower now? Please no retraining nonsense as jobs will dwindle too and mirror the trend elsewhere. Please show some political sense in your reply.
- ryandrake 11y ago
  Invent new enemies every few years and new wars to send all our excess manpower off to?
imh 11y ago
There will be few people needed at the apex of the arts, once the best of the best can do the jobs of most everyone else combined. We still need an economic plan for everyone else.
- munificent 11y ago
  Their amino acids will make an excellent source material for the 3D food printers.
  - puranjay 11y ago
    I don't look forward to my future as soylent green
  - jmckib 11y ago
    Nah, I'm pretty it will be more efficient to just grow meat in a lab.
    - saraid216 11y ago
      Out of what?
      - jmckib 11y ago
        Try googling "in vitro meat" and you may find some answers, but I don't know if this problem is solved yet. This article mentions algae as a possibility: https://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/2012/04/24/steak-of-the-art-the-fatal-flaws-of-in-vitro-meat/ https://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/2012/04/24/steak-of-...
- bcoates 11y ago
  I think you're vastly underestimating the diversity of tasks to be mastered. Everything is a hard problem if you want to do it well enough, and the current economy consists of a vast number of distinct kinds things made sloppily.
- IndianAstronaut 11y ago
enlightenedfool 11y ago
replace "automatons" with "foreign workers" and this economy is already in place in USA. It doesn't seem like pleasant to the humans at the apex.
mbell 11y ago
I agree it's what the 'next economy' will look like, but it's also what the 'last economy' looked like. Prior to the entire tech movement was agriculture, resource harvesting and material manufacturing. Previously farming was done by hand, now a single machine replaces a hundred workers. Previously coal was mined by hand, now a single machine replaces thousands of workers. Previously trees were axed by hand and sluiced by river, now you can clear a forest with a couple machines and a couple skilled operators. Previously producing cloth required massive numbers of skilled workers, then the loom was invented. I often see this argument that we're in some unprecedented state of replacing labor with automation. I don't see any proof of that. I think we replaced labor with automation at a much faster pace during the industrial revolution and made it out just fine. I'd love to see some stats on the differences if anyone has them.
- gregpilling 11y ago
  or... previously everybody had to produce the food they ate, now only 1% does. previously many people had to dig out coal, now a machine has relieved thousands of a shitty job......
- tehchromic 11y ago
  I didn't say replacing labor with automation, I said replacing mundane, inglorious labor with automation. I agree with you. What I am saying is that we will choose which labors we do by hand, based on an emerging, re-emerging set of ethics and values.
rasz_pl 11y ago
most will choose their own unemployment adventure.

nosuchthing 11y ago

...If we build framework to support such an economy, it may be possible.

TeMPOraL 11y ago
That's the crux of the issue. It seems that the current economy will rather drive itself to the ground, taking all of humanity with it, rather than transitioning itself to a different value system. It looks like the post-scarcity world is not on the phase-space trajectory we're currently following.
- nosuchthing 11y ago
  On a macro scale it's momentum and incentives at play. Daunting, but malleable. Locally, we're close to achieving sensible cities/communities with renewable energy, easier access to rapid prototyping, and worker co-op business models. Do what you can with what you have to make your city and friends have access to healthy enjoyable lives.
  - pavedwalden 11y ago
    From where I'm sitting, it doesn't look like we're remotely close. Renewable energy and effective urban planning are not at all common, and worker co-op business models are quite rare. I like your vision of the future, but I don't see much evidence that we're headed there.
- willholloway 11y ago
  Right now I feel every reason to be gratuitously optimistic. - Solar photo-voltaic is or is about to be the cheapest form of electricity, we will solve the storage problem - Electric cars are getting closer to the tipping point, and they are going to drive themselves - Biotech is making incredible gains, see cancer immunotherapy or NSI-189 - The pace of technological innovation has accelerated and continues - The intellectual capital of the human race has never been anywhere near this large, free, accessible - Robots/a lot of weak AI is or is about to get to a point to change the game
  - cauterized 11y ago
    We're on trajectory technologically but not sociologically.
    - nosuchthing 11y ago
      "We eat in restaurants, buy branded toiletries, build skyscrapers, create legislative institutions, travel in flying machines, write poetry, and search for meaning in relationships, temples, and scientific books. Humans have discovered antibiotics, sent probes into space, decimated rainforests, shared a billion views of clips of kitten behaviour, and decoded their own genomes. But there is one thing that humans have singularly failed to do, and that is to properly understand their own behaviour. " — Robert Aunger and Valerie Curtis: Gaining Control: How human behavior evolved [0] https://global.oup.com/academic/product/gaining-control-9780199688951?cc=us&lang=en& https://global.oup.com/academic/product/gaining-control-9780...
- ArkyBeagle 11y ago
  It's hubris to say this, but we're not as far off as you might think. If "they" can fix economics ( big if ) that alone would make a big difference. But the US only got off the gold standard in my lifetime. There's a Churchill quote about Americans; I think it generalizes to humans - "Americans can always be counted on to do the right thing…after they have exhausted all other possibilities."

frandroid 11y ago

To enable that, we need to have an economic system that redistributes the resources so that we can all have a shot a living a decent life, reducing the working hours of the many rather than the wealth of the few. Has there been a time in history where so many people have been working so much for so little?

abduhl 11y ago
Of course there's been a time in history where so many people have been working so much for so little. Plantation owners used to work their slaves from dawn till dusk for nothing. Farmers used to work the land from sun up to sun down just to feed their family. What a ridiculous question. Why do so many people think that times have never been so bad when, in all honesty, times have never been so good?
- harryh 11y ago
  Because we used to live in the garden of eden where everything was perfect, but then we sinned against god and if we don't repent we're all going to hell. I'm joking a little but I'm also serious. I kind of think that humans are somewhat hardwired to think this way given that so many people believe some version of this story.
- icebraining 11y ago
  Because the specific subset of people who post in these forums, mostly middle-class North Americans and Europeans, are worse off than a couple of decades ago - coupled with the fact that the type of jobs that are lifting hundreds of millions out of poverty make us feel dirty and self-righteous.
- frandroid 11y ago
  Worldwide, there are more people in slavery today than there was when slavery was legal. Plus all kinds of manufacturing quasi-slavery in south and south-east asia with crazy hours.
brc 11y ago
It's not clear. Are you advocating for socialism?

steamy 11y ago

The problem is the current size of the world population is designed and fit for the Industrial Age and not for the Information Age. What do you suggest we have to do to the "surplus" of manpower now? Please no retraining nonsense as jobs will dwindle too and mirror the trend elsewhere. Please show some political sense in your reply.

ryandrake 11y ago
Invent new enemies every few years and new wars to send all our excess manpower off to?

imh 11y ago

There will be few people needed at the apex of the arts, once the best of the best can do the jobs of most everyone else combined. We still need an economic plan for everyone else.

munificent 11y ago
Their amino acids will make an excellent source material for the 3D food printers.
- puranjay 11y ago
  I don't look forward to my future as soylent green
- jmckib 11y ago
  Nah, I'm pretty it will be more efficient to just grow meat in a lab.
  - saraid216 11y ago
    Out of what?
    - jmckib 11y ago
      Try googling "in vitro meat" and you may find some answers, but I don't know if this problem is solved yet. This article mentions algae as a possibility: https://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/2012/04/24/steak-of-the-art-the-fatal-flaws-of-in-vitro-meat/ https://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/2012/04/24/steak-of-...
bcoates 11y ago
I think you're vastly underestimating the diversity of tasks to be mastered. Everything is a hard problem if you want to do it well enough, and the current economy consists of a vast number of distinct kinds things made sloppily.
IndianAstronaut 11y ago

enlightenedfool 11y ago

replace "automatons" with "foreign workers" and this economy is already in place in USA. It doesn't seem like pleasant to the humans at the apex.

mbell 11y ago

I agree it's what the 'next economy' will look like, but it's also what the 'last economy' looked like. Prior to the entire tech movement was agriculture, resource harvesting and material manufacturing. Previously farming was done by hand, now a single machine replaces a hundred workers. Previously coal was mined by hand, now a single machine replaces thousands of workers. Previously trees were axed by hand and sluiced by river, now you can clear a forest with a couple machines and a couple skilled operators. Previously producing cloth required massive numbers of skilled workers, then the loom was invented. I often see this argument that we're in some unprecedented state of replacing labor with automation. I don't see any proof of that. I think we replaced labor with automation at a much faster pace during the industrial revolution and made it out just fine. I'd love to see some stats on the differences if anyone has them.

gregpilling 11y ago
or... previously everybody had to produce the food they ate, now only 1% does. previously many people had to dig out coal, now a machine has relieved thousands of a shitty job......
tehchromic 11y ago
I didn't say replacing labor with automation, I said replacing mundane, inglorious labor with automation. I agree with you. What I am saying is that we will choose which labors we do by hand, based on an emerging, re-emerging set of ethics and values.

rasz_pl 11y ago

most will choose their own unemployment adventure.