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> Think of a married man with children who often has thoughts of driving alone into the sunset and never turning back. Once you make the choice to bring little

by ekanes 12y ago

> Think of a married man with children who often has thoughts of driving alone into the sunset and never turning back. Once you make the choice to bring little ones into the world, it's not just about you and your pursuit of your happiness anymore. You don't ride off into the sunset not because of society's norms, but because if you did, what about those little kids? Should they be dumped by the side of your road because they're interfering with your happiness? You made them, you owe them something better than that.

jasode 12y ago
>Once you make the choice... Right... but my comments were about the messages we get from society before we make that choice. It's how society (e.g. magazine article of this HN thread) can distort that choice. >, what about those little kids? Should they be dumped by the side of your road because they're interfering with your happiness? You made them, you owe them something better than that. You misunderstood what I'm saying. I wasn't talking about ethics. The husband could stay with the kids because of societal norms, or stay because he feels personal responsibility, or stay because his kid knows how to reprogram his Android phone. It doesn't matter what the actual reason is or whether that reason is noble or trivial. My point was that the author of the article is putting forth a narrative about happy town life and it's heavy-handed enough that it comes across as a prescription for how to live. It seems as if she's not acknowledging that there are certain types of people who will not be happy prioritizing relationships over ambition. That sort of blind spot is expected right? Isn't it normal for people who are happy to analyze why they're happy and then conclude it's the friends & family? Therefore they project that friends & family for others will likely make them happy too. As a result, you get a lot of articles/movies/advice like hers playing up the family/friends/community narrative. It's not offset by any articles that advise a reader to diagnose if one's disposition is even compatible with that type of life.
- ekanes 12y ago
  Fair enough. If I'm hearing you right, your point is that we should be careful about society only crafting one message about happiness, because we could lead that man into the wrong unhappy situation. I do think the evidence is pretty strong that friends/community is correlated with happiness, though it's an interesting theoretical question whether or not it's correlated without causation. People who tend to be happy might also tend to like being part of a community. I do believe the relationship is causative, but admit it's a hard thing to prove.
  - sliverstorm 12y ago
    I doubt there are many people whose lives are not bettered by friends & loved ones. The hitch, I think, is when we try to prescribe how & when people should acquire them. E.g., your culture pushes you into marriage at a young age "because having a spouse and kids will make you happy" when in reality having the right spouse will make you happy and the wrong one won't. Since you were pushed, maybe you didn't make a good choice in spouse. Similar things could be said about shallow/forced/artificial friendships. While everyone benefits from good friends, what those friends are like and how you find and bond with them differs for different people So maybe it's important to deliver the message that people are what matter, but also important not to try to force when or who or where, and let people find their own way.
beachstartup 12y ago
uh, yeah, that's his entire point. the individual feels trapped - he can't just abandon his family. that's what a trap is - you can't escape.
- ekanes 12y ago
  Fine. I can't argue that people feel genuinely trapped in this situation; it happens all the time. I would point out though that the original conversation is about community rather than children per se, and that this is a situation the man in question (usually) chose to enter. That he might have made the wrong move is more his fault than society's for having misled him about what would give him happiness.

by ekanes 12y ago

jasode 12y ago

>Once you make the choice... Right... but my comments were about the messages we get from society before we make that choice. It's how society (e.g. magazine article of this HN thread) can distort that choice. >, what about those little kids? Should they be dumped by the side of your road because they're interfering with your happiness? You made them, you owe them something better than that. You misunderstood what I'm saying. I wasn't talking about ethics. The husband could stay with the kids because of societal norms, or stay because he feels personal responsibility, or stay because his kid knows how to reprogram his Android phone. It doesn't matter what the actual reason is or whether that reason is noble or trivial. My point was that the author of the article is putting forth a narrative about happy town life and it's heavy-handed enough that it comes across as a prescription for how to live. It seems as if she's not acknowledging that there are certain types of people who will not be happy prioritizing relationships over ambition. That sort of blind spot is expected right? Isn't it normal for people who are happy to analyze why they're happy and then conclude it's the friends & family? Therefore they project that friends & family for others will likely make them happy too. As a result, you get a lot of articles/movies/advice like hers playing up the family/friends/community narrative. It's not offset by any articles that advise a reader to diagnose if one's disposition is even compatible with that type of life.

ekanes 12y ago
Fair enough. If I'm hearing you right, your point is that we should be careful about society only crafting one message about happiness, because we could lead that man into the wrong unhappy situation. I do think the evidence is pretty strong that friends/community is correlated with happiness, though it's an interesting theoretical question whether or not it's correlated without causation. People who tend to be happy might also tend to like being part of a community. I do believe the relationship is causative, but admit it's a hard thing to prove.
- sliverstorm 12y ago
  I doubt there are many people whose lives are not bettered by friends & loved ones. The hitch, I think, is when we try to prescribe how & when people should acquire them. E.g., your culture pushes you into marriage at a young age "because having a spouse and kids will make you happy" when in reality having the right spouse will make you happy and the wrong one won't. Since you were pushed, maybe you didn't make a good choice in spouse. Similar things could be said about shallow/forced/artificial friendships. While everyone benefits from good friends, what those friends are like and how you find and bond with them differs for different people So maybe it's important to deliver the message that people are what matter, but also important not to try to force when or who or where, and let people find their own way.

beachstartup 12y ago

uh, yeah, that's his entire point. the individual feels trapped - he can't just abandon his family. that's what a trap is - you can't escape.

ekanes 12y ago
Fine. I can't argue that people feel genuinely trapped in this situation; it happens all the time. I would point out though that the original conversation is about community rather than children per se, and that this is a situation the man in question (usually) chose to enter. That he might have made the wrong move is more his fault than society's for having misled him about what would give him happiness.