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>A job in industry ultimately felt like it might provide more freedom in the long run than the academic track [...] Does having a full-time industry job allow

by otoburb 12y ago

>A job in industry ultimately felt like it might provide more freedom in the long run than the academic track [...] Does having a full-time industry job allow you to seriously pursue your own research interests on the side? For mathematics research especially, why don't more research-oriented mathematicians pursue this dual path? I understand part-time research necessarily implies a slower publication rate, but since you're already eschewing this anyway, are there any other drawbacks? Two that spring to mind are a restriction to travel to mathematics conferences and socializing with mathematicians during the day -- are these big show stoppers?

bra-ket 12y ago
right, Einstein's part-time research is a good example
yodsanklai 12y ago
> why don't more research-oriented mathematicians pursue this dual path? I think there are two non exclusive ways of doing research successfully. Intense work and collaboration (in particular supervision of students). PhD students and postdoc fall in the first category. They work full time on their research and do little else. On the other hand, most successful experienced researchers are busy writing grant proposals, teaching, attending various committees. There's not enough time left to do meaningful research by themselves (plus getting older doesn't help to stay sharp and passionate), so they end up supervising students that to the bulk of the research. I think someone that would try to do research on its spare time won't have enough time to devote to it (unlike a phd student), and won't be able to supervise students (unlike a professor).
- otoburb 12y ago
  Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought mathematics was one of the few areas of study where one could noodle away on a problem or area with little in the way of supporting or expensive infrastructure. As most on this site can probably attest to, one of the biggest issues with part-time/hobby/side projects is motivation and discipline. That problem seems to be already partially solved by the freedom to pick an area of mathematics one is already interested in. Not having enough time to devote to a problem part-time doesn't seem like a large problem if somebody wants to work on problems of their own choosing as per the OP. Thus, my confusion. I can definitely see that collaboration is a tougher nut to crack unless most participation starts shifting to evening group meetings.
  - colechristensen 12y ago
    You can, but... Some do actually use supercomputers to do mathematics. Most however, thrive in an actual academic environment including spending a lot of time interacting with other mathematicians and going to conferences. There's a big difference between living in an academic environment and spending your whole life thinking about math and being around people who do the same... and working a 9-5 and doing a little math on the side. Not to say it isn't possible, but most reasonable jobs don't leave much left over mental energy for doing maths.
    - AngrySkillzz 12y ago
      Yeah, and it's hard to get exposure to areas that might be fertile for inquiry if you aren't spending time with other people who are working on mathematics. It's a social networking effect, in the same way that you pick up programming tricks and get exposure to new frameworks/languages/techniques by spending time with other developers. I'm sure there is a sizable number of "amateur" mathematicians who work on problems in their free time, but it is hard to know what to work on and where to look.
  - fragmede 12y ago
    > ...mathematics was one of the few areas of study where one could noodle away ... with little ... infrastructure. The New Yorker had an interesting article about Yitang Zhang and his discovery concerning bounded primes. The discovery itself is interesting for the mathematics involved, but of wider interest is that up until this discovery, he was a relative unknown in the mathematical establishment. If it were simply a question of motivation and discipline to have math as a hobby, we would expect discoveries from unknown individuals more frequently, but, alas, that's not true, which is what makes this story precious. It stems from the fact, among other things, that math isn't like programming. It's not like deciding, one day, that you want to write your own operating system, and then the small matter of coding it up. Math requires* those leaps of intuition that come to you after banging your head against the same problem for months. Most employers would start to question a developer's continued employment if it took them five months to resolve a single ticket. *http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/02/02/pursuit-beauty http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/02/02/pursuit-beauty
angersock 12y ago
Does having a full-time industry job allow you to seriously pursue your own research interests on the side? You lose maybe 6-12 hours to a job--assuming you never work on research or knowledge expansion during work hours, which is unlikely--but then you don't have to have that stuff hanging over your head. Bills are getting paid, equipment can be purchased (if you need it), and your social life is happier. So, I think that research can absolutely be pursued outside of academia.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
AngrySkillzz 12y ago
I've actually been playing with the idea of a "monastery" for mathematicians; we could get a group of mathematicians together to live simply and cheaply somewhere, subsisting on a small amount of savings and freeing up time to study and solve problems.
- drcross 12y ago
  Move to a cheap part of the county and apply for unemployment benefit. Problem solved.
- j2kun 12y ago
  I would consider signing up. The problem is finding a place, funding, and someone to administrate it.
- pcrh 12y ago
  You could take in a few select students as well. Then maybe award them a certificate of completion (a "degree", if you will). In exchange, they would maybe make a small contribution towards the running costs.
- nnq 12y ago
  I thought about something similar, but more like a "monastery-style research institute" where people, with some amount of provable expertise, regardless of credentials or previous publications, would be able to check-in for pre-determined period of time and just do "open ended research" (the kind of things no sane university or corporation would ever pay for...) and have living expenses plus other basic needs provided, and spared from having to waste energy in the meaningless and draining "dance" we call "social life", for with the sole condition that their research is "open source" and that they are actually staying there working, not just using it as a free/cheap rent. The "monastery" could also be run as a business, having a for-profit section developing products based on the ideas produced inside. Something like the members of the monastery signing an agreement that they are ok with their results being published with one year delay, time that would give an edge to the monastery over any competitors that would also want to develop products based on them - think of it like a "research monastery self-financed by coupling with a sort of startup incubator" (with some really intransigent and incorruptible people working to keep the two camps of people apart and to stop the "business idea developers" from exploiting the "monks"). And for research fields that require some expensive equipment, like bio-medical research, the "monastery" may make the "monks" sign contracts giving the patents and other right to their discoveries to the monastery, in exchange for having access to a lab where they can work on anything they want. It's not that utopic since you can a pretty usable top notch molecular biology lab plus an animal experiments facility for under $1M (probably not in the US because you have too many regulations and stuff...) if you find alternative channels of buying equipment of user other "hacks" that regular research institutes can't use... But it's the kind of idea that it's hard to convince other people it would make sense... so for now I'll keep it on my list of to-dos for after I get filthy rich so I can finance this myself.
beachstartup 12y ago
isn't this essentially what einstein did before he made it big? at the patent office, etc.
sdenton4 12y ago
For my part, I was starting to consider questions of what my area of mathematics might have interesting things to say about machine learning. The industry job I landed in has me doing applied ML, and working through many of the subtleties of some interesting algorithms. As such, the research isn't necessarily so far off from the industry job, though the need for a small Big-O constrains things a bit.
bandrami 12y ago
For mathematics research especially, why don't more research-oriented mathematicians pursue this dual path? Because it's much much harder to get published when you aren't immediately associated with a university. People just assume "crank".

by otoburb 12y ago

bra-ket 12y ago

right, Einstein's part-time research is a good example

yodsanklai 12y ago

> why don't more research-oriented mathematicians pursue this dual path? I think there are two non exclusive ways of doing research successfully. Intense work and collaboration (in particular supervision of students). PhD students and postdoc fall in the first category. They work full time on their research and do little else. On the other hand, most successful experienced researchers are busy writing grant proposals, teaching, attending various committees. There's not enough time left to do meaningful research by themselves (plus getting older doesn't help to stay sharp and passionate), so they end up supervising students that to the bulk of the research. I think someone that would try to do research on its spare time won't have enough time to devote to it (unlike a phd student), and won't be able to supervise students (unlike a professor).

otoburb 12y ago
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought mathematics was one of the few areas of study where one could noodle away on a problem or area with little in the way of supporting or expensive infrastructure. As most on this site can probably attest to, one of the biggest issues with part-time/hobby/side projects is motivation and discipline. That problem seems to be already partially solved by the freedom to pick an area of mathematics one is already interested in. Not having enough time to devote to a problem part-time doesn't seem like a large problem if somebody wants to work on problems of their own choosing as per the OP. Thus, my confusion. I can definitely see that collaboration is a tougher nut to crack unless most participation starts shifting to evening group meetings.
- colechristensen 12y ago
  You can, but... Some do actually use supercomputers to do mathematics. Most however, thrive in an actual academic environment including spending a lot of time interacting with other mathematicians and going to conferences. There's a big difference between living in an academic environment and spending your whole life thinking about math and being around people who do the same... and working a 9-5 and doing a little math on the side. Not to say it isn't possible, but most reasonable jobs don't leave much left over mental energy for doing maths.
  - AngrySkillzz 12y ago
    Yeah, and it's hard to get exposure to areas that might be fertile for inquiry if you aren't spending time with other people who are working on mathematics. It's a social networking effect, in the same way that you pick up programming tricks and get exposure to new frameworks/languages/techniques by spending time with other developers. I'm sure there is a sizable number of "amateur" mathematicians who work on problems in their free time, but it is hard to know what to work on and where to look.
- fragmede 12y ago
  > ...mathematics was one of the few areas of study where one could noodle away ... with little ... infrastructure. The New Yorker had an interesting article about Yitang Zhang and his discovery concerning bounded primes. The discovery itself is interesting for the mathematics involved, but of wider interest is that up until this discovery, he was a relative unknown in the mathematical establishment. If it were simply a question of motivation and discipline to have math as a hobby, we would expect discoveries from unknown individuals more frequently, but, alas, that's not true, which is what makes this story precious. It stems from the fact, among other things, that math isn't like programming. It's not like deciding, one day, that you want to write your own operating system, and then the small matter of coding it up. Math requires* those leaps of intuition that come to you after banging your head against the same problem for months. Most employers would start to question a developer's continued employment if it took them five months to resolve a single ticket. *http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/02/02/pursuit-beauty http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/02/02/pursuit-beauty

angersock 12y ago

Does having a full-time industry job allow you to seriously pursue your own research interests on the side? You lose maybe 6-12 hours to a job--assuming you never work on research or knowledge expansion during work hours, which is unlikely--but then you don't have to have that stuff hanging over your head. Bills are getting paid, equipment can be purchased (if you need it), and your social life is happier. So, I think that research can absolutely be pursued outside of academia.

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]

AngrySkillzz 12y ago

I've actually been playing with the idea of a "monastery" for mathematicians; we could get a group of mathematicians together to live simply and cheaply somewhere, subsisting on a small amount of savings and freeing up time to study and solve problems.

drcross 12y ago
Move to a cheap part of the county and apply for unemployment benefit. Problem solved.
j2kun 12y ago
I would consider signing up. The problem is finding a place, funding, and someone to administrate it.
pcrh 12y ago
You could take in a few select students as well. Then maybe award them a certificate of completion (a "degree", if you will). In exchange, they would maybe make a small contribution towards the running costs.
nnq 12y ago
I thought about something similar, but more like a "monastery-style research institute" where people, with some amount of provable expertise, regardless of credentials or previous publications, would be able to check-in for pre-determined period of time and just do "open ended research" (the kind of things no sane university or corporation would ever pay for...) and have living expenses plus other basic needs provided, and spared from having to waste energy in the meaningless and draining "dance" we call "social life", for with the sole condition that their research is "open source" and that they are actually staying there working, not just using it as a free/cheap rent. The "monastery" could also be run as a business, having a for-profit section developing products based on the ideas produced inside. Something like the members of the monastery signing an agreement that they are ok with their results being published with one year delay, time that would give an edge to the monastery over any competitors that would also want to develop products based on them - think of it like a "research monastery self-financed by coupling with a sort of startup incubator" (with some really intransigent and incorruptible people working to keep the two camps of people apart and to stop the "business idea developers" from exploiting the "monks"). And for research fields that require some expensive equipment, like bio-medical research, the "monastery" may make the "monks" sign contracts giving the patents and other right to their discoveries to the monastery, in exchange for having access to a lab where they can work on anything they want. It's not that utopic since you can a pretty usable top notch molecular biology lab plus an animal experiments facility for under $1M (probably not in the US because you have too many regulations and stuff...) if you find alternative channels of buying equipment of user other "hacks" that regular research institutes can't use... But it's the kind of idea that it's hard to convince other people it would make sense... so for now I'll keep it on my list of to-dos for after I get filthy rich so I can finance this myself.

beachstartup 12y ago

isn't this essentially what einstein did before he made it big? at the patent office, etc.

sdenton4 12y ago

For my part, I was starting to consider questions of what my area of mathematics might have interesting things to say about machine learning. The industry job I landed in has me doing applied ML, and working through many of the subtleties of some interesting algorithms. As such, the research isn't necessarily so far off from the industry job, though the need for a small Big-O constrains things a bit.

bandrami 12y ago

For mathematics research especially, why don't more research-oriented mathematicians pursue this dual path? Because it's much much harder to get published when you aren't immediately associated with a university. People just assume "crank".