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A good reminder of what it would be like if we lived in a world where there is no Android and iOS is a monopoly. Apple's anti competitive behavior puts Microso

A good reminder of what it would be like if we lived in a world where there is no Android and iOS is a monopoly. Apple's anti competitive behavior puts Microsoft of the 90s to shame.

blumkvist 11y ago
Nowhere near...
- random28345 11y ago
  > Nowhere near... You're right, Apple is significantly worse. Microsoft went out of it's way to make sure that competitors applications didn't work (DOS isn't done until Lotus 123 won't run). This sparked a development arms race wasting hundreds of hours of development time working around intentional compatibility bugs. On the other hand, Apple sometimes just doesn't let your software run at all. No matter what. Because fuck you, that's why. Your company plays by Apple's rules and tithes to Apple or it dies on iOS. Oh, and Apple reserves the right to kill your compay's sales on iOS for any time, any reason, including stealing all your ideas and competing with you.
  - blumkvist 11y ago
    It's about market share and global impact. It might sound like double standard to you, but denying your awesome new airbnb for dogs app is not quite the same as denying Java.
    - atomicfiredoll 11y ago
      > It's about market share and global impact There's not some kind of, "the impact has to be as large as when company X did it" rule. Apple now has enough market share, especially in mobile, that the global impact is troubling.
      - blumkvist 11y ago
        I don't know what rules you're talking about here. The OP says that Apple has worse practices than MSFT. I say that's not true. Denying computing technology on which business, governments, factories, powerplants, etc. run is FAR worse than denying (objectively) useless apps. When has Apple hindered a break-through technology? PS: I'm a massive fan of Microsoft marketing and strategy and have owned a grand total of 1 Apple products in my life - an iphone 4. Just fyi.
        bzbarsky 11y ago
        > When has Apple hindered a break-through technology? Contemporary example: it's impossible (as in, disallowed by Apple's policies) to install a web browser with a rendering engine written in a memory-safe language on your iDevice.
        CHY872 11y ago
        I'm not super concerned about that. In particular, no such browser exists, so it's largely a semantic argument. Furthermore, there are inherent security risks; so it's easier to just lock it down until there is actually a problem. The bigger problem is that you can't implement a JIT on iOS, because you can't take a writeable page and make it executable. This is a clear security positive for iOS, but does preclude writing a decent javascript runtime.
        bzbarsky 11y ago
        > In particular, no such browser exists Such a rendering engine does exist (Servo), and one can build a browser around it (and that will in fact happen). Just not on iDevices. > The bigger problem is that you can't implement a JIT on iOS You're not allowed to implement an interpreter either, if the code that you're interpreting is downloaded from the internet.
        CHY872 11y ago
        Not quite. I did consider Servo, but it's hardly ready for use in the wild. It'd fall foul of many iOS guidelines, not just the 'no browser' one. It'd also fall foul of the 'only C, C++, Objective-C, Swift' guideline, for example. I didn't know the second point, but it's clearly there for the same reason; it's an easy way to stop apps from including new functionality and bypassing the review process.
    - freehunter 11y ago
      Which Apple does both of, so...?
    - kbenson 11y ago
      You are mistaking monopoly for anti-competitive behavior. It's possible to exhibit anti-competitive behavior without being a monopoly.
      - blumkvist 11y ago
        Uuuh, yeah... ompanies are competing for the same clients, of course they would exhibit anti-competitive behavior. This is problem only if said company has market dominance, because then the anti-competitive measures affect all the market. Guys, do you dream of unicorns and fart rainbows all day? WTF?
        kbenson 11y ago
        The original statement was "Apple's anti competitive behavior puts Microsoft of the 90s to shame." It was specifically about the behavior or apple, not the result on the market. If you want to make an argument that Apples anticompetitive behavior is not as bad as Microsoft's behavior in the 90's, feel free, but whether either of them have or had a monopoly is irrelevant when comparing behavior.
- rodgerd 11y ago
  That's true. Microsoft have never taken out a court case claiming exclusive ownership of the idea of windowing GUIs, or the shape of icons, or the mechanisms for interacting with touch screens. Apple are infintely worse.
Istof 11y ago
Apple always closely controlled what hardware can be used with their software, even in the 90s... which is why I never purchased it. Always been the opposite of Microsoft in that regard.
- yellowapple 11y ago
  Right, but until iOS came about, they didn't really go the other way and control what software can be used with their hardware. That's the underlying problem here. Unlike with their desktop products, Apple's mobile products have only one possible source of software (unless you break the phone's security and install Cydia); as long as that continues to be the case, the sort of shafting like what this topic is about will continue to happen without government intervention.
lnanek2 11y ago
Google actually just stated they moved to in person reviews, so expect Android to get just as bad.
- ChrisClark 11y ago
  They actually stated they moved to reviewing apps several months ago. They are just letting us know now. No one noticed.
- yellowapple 11y ago
  Even if it did get "just as bad" on the Play Store (it probably won't, since Google's fully aware that Apple's shooting itself in the foot with its draconian restrictions on apps), you're forgetting that - unlike with iOS (unless you jailbreak, something that's actively fought against by Apple) - most Android devices allow the installation of apps from outside the Play Store.
dghughes 11y ago
Imagine a world where IBM compatible computers didn't exist.
- yellowapple 11y ago
  Then I'd be happily running an SGI or Sun workstation :)

A good reminder of what it would be like if we lived in a world where there is no Android and iOS is a monopoly. Apple's anti competitive behavior puts Microsoft of the 90s to shame.

blumkvist 11y ago

Nowhere near...

random28345 11y ago
> Nowhere near... You're right, Apple is significantly worse. Microsoft went out of it's way to make sure that competitors applications didn't work (DOS isn't done until Lotus 123 won't run). This sparked a development arms race wasting hundreds of hours of development time working around intentional compatibility bugs. On the other hand, Apple sometimes just doesn't let your software run at all. No matter what. Because fuck you, that's why. Your company plays by Apple's rules and tithes to Apple or it dies on iOS. Oh, and Apple reserves the right to kill your compay's sales on iOS for any time, any reason, including stealing all your ideas and competing with you.
- blumkvist 11y ago
  It's about market share and global impact. It might sound like double standard to you, but denying your awesome new airbnb for dogs app is not quite the same as denying Java.
  - atomicfiredoll 11y ago
    > It's about market share and global impact There's not some kind of, "the impact has to be as large as when company X did it" rule. Apple now has enough market share, especially in mobile, that the global impact is troubling.
    - blumkvist 11y ago
      I don't know what rules you're talking about here. The OP says that Apple has worse practices than MSFT. I say that's not true. Denying computing technology on which business, governments, factories, powerplants, etc. run is FAR worse than denying (objectively) useless apps. When has Apple hindered a break-through technology? PS: I'm a massive fan of Microsoft marketing and strategy and have owned a grand total of 1 Apple products in my life - an iphone 4. Just fyi.
      - bzbarsky 11y ago
        > When has Apple hindered a break-through technology? Contemporary example: it's impossible (as in, disallowed by Apple's policies) to install a web browser with a rendering engine written in a memory-safe language on your iDevice.
        CHY872 11y ago
        I'm not super concerned about that. In particular, no such browser exists, so it's largely a semantic argument. Furthermore, there are inherent security risks; so it's easier to just lock it down until there is actually a problem. The bigger problem is that you can't implement a JIT on iOS, because you can't take a writeable page and make it executable. This is a clear security positive for iOS, but does preclude writing a decent javascript runtime.
        bzbarsky 11y ago
        > In particular, no such browser exists Such a rendering engine does exist (Servo), and one can build a browser around it (and that will in fact happen). Just not on iDevices. > The bigger problem is that you can't implement a JIT on iOS You're not allowed to implement an interpreter either, if the code that you're interpreting is downloaded from the internet.
        CHY872 11y ago
        Not quite. I did consider Servo, but it's hardly ready for use in the wild. It'd fall foul of many iOS guidelines, not just the 'no browser' one. It'd also fall foul of the 'only C, C++, Objective-C, Swift' guideline, for example. I didn't know the second point, but it's clearly there for the same reason; it's an easy way to stop apps from including new functionality and bypassing the review process.
  - freehunter 11y ago
    Which Apple does both of, so...?
  - kbenson 11y ago
    You are mistaking monopoly for anti-competitive behavior. It's possible to exhibit anti-competitive behavior without being a monopoly.
    - blumkvist 11y ago
      Uuuh, yeah... ompanies are competing for the same clients, of course they would exhibit anti-competitive behavior. This is problem only if said company has market dominance, because then the anti-competitive measures affect all the market. Guys, do you dream of unicorns and fart rainbows all day? WTF?
      - kbenson 11y ago
        The original statement was "Apple's anti competitive behavior puts Microsoft of the 90s to shame." It was specifically about the behavior or apple, not the result on the market. If you want to make an argument that Apples anticompetitive behavior is not as bad as Microsoft's behavior in the 90's, feel free, but whether either of them have or had a monopoly is irrelevant when comparing behavior.
rodgerd 11y ago
That's true. Microsoft have never taken out a court case claiming exclusive ownership of the idea of windowing GUIs, or the shape of icons, or the mechanisms for interacting with touch screens. Apple are infintely worse.

Istof 11y ago

Apple always closely controlled what hardware can be used with their software, even in the 90s... which is why I never purchased it. Always been the opposite of Microsoft in that regard.

yellowapple 11y ago
Right, but until iOS came about, they didn't really go the other way and control what software can be used with their hardware. That's the underlying problem here. Unlike with their desktop products, Apple's mobile products have only one possible source of software (unless you break the phone's security and install Cydia); as long as that continues to be the case, the sort of shafting like what this topic is about will continue to happen without government intervention.

lnanek2 11y ago

Google actually just stated they moved to in person reviews, so expect Android to get just as bad.

ChrisClark 11y ago
They actually stated they moved to reviewing apps several months ago. They are just letting us know now. No one noticed.
yellowapple 11y ago
Even if it did get "just as bad" on the Play Store (it probably won't, since Google's fully aware that Apple's shooting itself in the foot with its draconian restrictions on apps), you're forgetting that - unlike with iOS (unless you jailbreak, something that's actively fought against by Apple) - most Android devices allow the installation of apps from outside the Play Store.

dghughes 11y ago

Imagine a world where IBM compatible computers didn't exist.

yellowapple 11y ago
Then I'd be happily running an SGI or Sun workstation :)