7 ms·

Java's strength is not the power of the language, and nobody ever claimed so. They improve it bit by bit, but that's all. You want to use uber-cool features? Tr

Java's strength is not the power of the language, and nobody ever claimed so. They improve it bit by bit, but that's all. You want to use uber-cool features? Try Scala or any of the gazillions other languages/platforms JVM fully supports. (personal anecdote - as senior java guy with 10+ years of experience, I've got recently assigned a small project of amending legacy MFC C++ (but mostly C) app - I could write a book about the pain. Language itself is a minor obstacle in this effort (albeit MFC/WinAPI has very steep learning curve for me). Where Java wins, and will win for many years to come is maturity of toolset, quality of open source libraries and also probably the most important thing - the amount of skilled developers any employer can pick from. .NET platform will probably get (finally) on track, but it's an uphill battle against Oracle's current position. But I like the situation - improvement in MS camp will force competition to improve as well, so we all benefit :)

WDCDev 12y ago
I always felt Java's strength was the runtime. Java can run on so many platforms. Compare that to how many CLR implementations there are. This is one of .NET's biggest failings, though this is being rectified by MS when the open sourced the runtime.
- bontoJR 12y ago
  You're right and being 20 and more years old, it has so many optimizations that are making the JVM damn fast. Scala takes advantage on many of these optimizations and results are impressive. I think Java as language is failing in the implementation of new concepts, being quite late compared to other languages not running on the JVM. If C# will improve the general performance and stability of CLR, already having the best IDE ever made, they can easily compete and even win against the Java-World. P.S. I worked with Java (now only Scala) and C#, so I have experience with both languages/envs.
- frik 12y ago
  MS open sourced only a certain parts of dotNet. Important legacy parts like WinForms are closed source.
  - pistle 12y ago
    As they should be. These aren't the UI abstractions you are looking for...
  - will_hughes 12y ago
    It's arguable whether Winforms, WPF, and other parts that are very heavily Windows dependant bits of the .NET Framework are that important for open source development. Even if they did open those, they're of very little use outside Windows platforms without a huge amount of work to remove how tightly they bind to the windows APIs. There's much better alternatives if you want to do UI cross platform (or just 'not windows').
melling 12y ago
Scala compiles too slowly. Otherwise, it would be more popular. In general, I think it's a bad idea to make these sort of excuses. Java as a language needs to better compete. The Perl community, for example, used to diss Python by saying CPAN gave it a huge advantage. Perl lost momentum and all the kids now use Python. C# can be used with Unity, for instance. Gateway drug. :-).
- thescrewdriver 12y ago
  > Scala compiles too slowly. Otherwise, it would be more popular. For day-to-day Scala development incremental compilation etc. mean that a typical build in my IDE takes about a second. I think it has more to do with Java being the default/official language for the JVM (and the Scala learning curve). Similarly, F# is a great language, but C# has always been seen as the default go-to language for the CLR (VB.NET anyone?).
  - sk5t 12y ago
    VB.NET has a certain utility as a terrific indicator of whom to avoid...
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- pkolaczk 12y ago
  Scala 2.10 compiles our ~150 file project (which has some seriously big files with lot of implicits in them) in about 15-20 seconds for me. Incremental compile times are typically 1-5 seconds. And this all on a laptop from early 2011. Indeed, this is slower than Java or C#, but nothing terrible. Running any test suite takes much longer.
yatendra 12y ago
Well MFC C++(mostly C) and .Net are as similar as C++ and Java. MFC C++(mostly C) is unmanaged legacy code and .Net is managed code.
awa 12y ago
Interesting that you rate Java higher in maturity of toolset given that C# has Visual studio + Resharper which many believe to be the best IDE experience out there for OO development.
- oblio 12y ago
  Resharper is made by Jetbrains. The flagship product made by Jetbrains is IntelliJ, a Java IDE and probably the best IDE money can buy. It is also and the thing which inspired Resharper (Jetbrains itself was called "Intellij" previously). Now, if on top of the IDE, which is at least on par with VS + Resharper, you add things like build tools, project management tools, testing and code coverage tools, Java is basically the Godfather. xUnit, including NUnit, comes from Junit (Java), Nant was inspired by Ant (Java), Nuget was inspired by Maven (Java), etc.
- peterashford 12y ago
  Only by people who don't know better. Netbeans is a better IDE than Visual Studio.
nbevans 12y ago
> ".NET platform will probably get (finally) on track" Eh? .NET land has been on a higher technical superiority level to Java for almost a decade. Pretty much as soon as .NET got generics at the CLR level the tide was changing. Then that so-called LINQ feature in C# put the final nail in the Java coffin. The fact that .NET has always had value types and function/delegate types from day one has meant the third party .NET toolset has emerged in a different less clumsy way than in Java land. > "but it's an uphill battle against Oracle's current position" Eh? Java isn't even open source in any meaningful sense. Just look what happened to Google/Android when they mistakenly thought Java was open source. I'm not sure what this so called "maturity of toolset" for Java really is either. Most of it is just piles of garbage libraries and frameworks to work around fundamental flaws of the language, and/or to continue pedalling the broken enterprise styles of OOP and SOLID bandwagon onto yet more innocents. > "the amount of skilled developers any employer can pick from." Eh? Ever tried picking a good one from a batch of Java Enterprise devs? It can be a costly exercise. There is almost nothing to distinguish them, that is the problem. Because they're all just Gang Of Four Do-Repeat-Yourself-But-Claim-Not-To code monkeys.
- sk5t 12y ago
  Strongly agreed on most points, C# has been kicking Java's butt in language tech for a long time. Java's support for generics and lambdas continues to lag C# by a large distance... Java 8's .stream() is a horrible substitute for LINQ extension methods. Nothing in Java 8 threading is remotely as good as TPL. And of course, there are still no general-purpose continuations or something like C#'s awesome async/await outside of a few very narrow cases. On the matter of the toolset, let's call it a draw. Visual Studio is IMHO vastly better and more reliable than Eclipse or IntelliJ. Java has a longer and richer history of good third-party tools with Apache, the Maven ecosystem, etc., which are still ahead of NuGet and its siblings. I think Maven still gives the edge to Java for dependency management, building, and packaging, although it takes a long time to get into its mindset. It sure is nice to have the same IDE and same build process across Windows, Linux, and OS X development environments (I use all three during the course of a day and it helps keep the build honest). Now, the runtime and hosting... I can't say enough good things about being able to throw together executable-JAR docker images with Java. On the other hand, I'll take IIS over other web servers, given the choice. CLR vs. JVM is a tough call... the myriad versions and OpenJDK vs. Oracle JDK licensing fracture are not helpful for Java. On a technical basis CLR and JVM have rarely bitten me often or badly enough to produce a clear bias--provided the code is sound and there's _no_ _JNI_. Whether JNI's awfulness is really a feature is a discussion for another time...

WDCDev 12y ago

I always felt Java's strength was the runtime. Java can run on so many platforms. Compare that to how many CLR implementations there are. This is one of .NET's biggest failings, though this is being rectified by MS when the open sourced the runtime.

bontoJR 12y ago
You're right and being 20 and more years old, it has so many optimizations that are making the JVM damn fast. Scala takes advantage on many of these optimizations and results are impressive. I think Java as language is failing in the implementation of new concepts, being quite late compared to other languages not running on the JVM. If C# will improve the general performance and stability of CLR, already having the best IDE ever made, they can easily compete and even win against the Java-World. P.S. I worked with Java (now only Scala) and C#, so I have experience with both languages/envs.
frik 12y ago
MS open sourced only a certain parts of dotNet. Important legacy parts like WinForms are closed source.
- pistle 12y ago
  As they should be. These aren't the UI abstractions you are looking for...
- will_hughes 12y ago
  It's arguable whether Winforms, WPF, and other parts that are very heavily Windows dependant bits of the .NET Framework are that important for open source development. Even if they did open those, they're of very little use outside Windows platforms without a huge amount of work to remove how tightly they bind to the windows APIs. There's much better alternatives if you want to do UI cross platform (or just 'not windows').

melling 12y ago

Scala compiles too slowly. Otherwise, it would be more popular. In general, I think it's a bad idea to make these sort of excuses. Java as a language needs to better compete. The Perl community, for example, used to diss Python by saying CPAN gave it a huge advantage. Perl lost momentum and all the kids now use Python. C# can be used with Unity, for instance. Gateway drug. :-).

thescrewdriver 12y ago
> Scala compiles too slowly. Otherwise, it would be more popular. For day-to-day Scala development incremental compilation etc. mean that a typical build in my IDE takes about a second. I think it has more to do with Java being the default/official language for the JVM (and the Scala learning curve). Similarly, F# is a great language, but C# has always been seen as the default go-to language for the CLR (VB.NET anyone?).
- sk5t 12y ago
  VB.NET has a certain utility as a terrific indicator of whom to avoid...
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
pkolaczk 12y ago
Scala 2.10 compiles our ~150 file project (which has some seriously big files with lot of implicits in them) in about 15-20 seconds for me. Incremental compile times are typically 1-5 seconds. And this all on a laptop from early 2011. Indeed, this is slower than Java or C#, but nothing terrible. Running any test suite takes much longer.

yatendra 12y ago

Well MFC C++(mostly C) and .Net are as similar as C++ and Java. MFC C++(mostly C) is unmanaged legacy code and .Net is managed code.

awa 12y ago

Interesting that you rate Java higher in maturity of toolset given that C# has Visual studio + Resharper which many believe to be the best IDE experience out there for OO development.

oblio 12y ago
Resharper is made by Jetbrains. The flagship product made by Jetbrains is IntelliJ, a Java IDE and probably the best IDE money can buy. It is also and the thing which inspired Resharper (Jetbrains itself was called "Intellij" previously). Now, if on top of the IDE, which is at least on par with VS + Resharper, you add things like build tools, project management tools, testing and code coverage tools, Java is basically the Godfather. xUnit, including NUnit, comes from Junit (Java), Nant was inspired by Ant (Java), Nuget was inspired by Maven (Java), etc.
peterashford 12y ago
Only by people who don't know better. Netbeans is a better IDE than Visual Studio.

nbevans 12y ago

> ".NET platform will probably get (finally) on track" Eh? .NET land has been on a higher technical superiority level to Java for almost a decade. Pretty much as soon as .NET got generics at the CLR level the tide was changing. Then that so-called LINQ feature in C# put the final nail in the Java coffin. The fact that .NET has always had value types and function/delegate types from day one has meant the third party .NET toolset has emerged in a different less clumsy way than in Java land. > "but it's an uphill battle against Oracle's current position" Eh? Java isn't even open source in any meaningful sense. Just look what happened to Google/Android when they mistakenly thought Java was open source. I'm not sure what this so called "maturity of toolset" for Java really is either. Most of it is just piles of garbage libraries and frameworks to work around fundamental flaws of the language, and/or to continue pedalling the broken enterprise styles of OOP and SOLID bandwagon onto yet more innocents. > "the amount of skilled developers any employer can pick from." Eh? Ever tried picking a good one from a batch of Java Enterprise devs? It can be a costly exercise. There is almost nothing to distinguish them, that is the problem. Because they're all just Gang Of Four Do-Repeat-Yourself-But-Claim-Not-To code monkeys.

sk5t 12y ago
Strongly agreed on most points, C# has been kicking Java's butt in language tech for a long time. Java's support for generics and lambdas continues to lag C# by a large distance... Java 8's .stream() is a horrible substitute for LINQ extension methods. Nothing in Java 8 threading is remotely as good as TPL. And of course, there are still no general-purpose continuations or something like C#'s awesome async/await outside of a few very narrow cases. On the matter of the toolset, let's call it a draw. Visual Studio is IMHO vastly better and more reliable than Eclipse or IntelliJ. Java has a longer and richer history of good third-party tools with Apache, the Maven ecosystem, etc., which are still ahead of NuGet and its siblings. I think Maven still gives the edge to Java for dependency management, building, and packaging, although it takes a long time to get into its mindset. It sure is nice to have the same IDE and same build process across Windows, Linux, and OS X development environments (I use all three during the course of a day and it helps keep the build honest). Now, the runtime and hosting... I can't say enough good things about being able to throw together executable-JAR docker images with Java. On the other hand, I'll take IIS over other web servers, given the choice. CLR vs. JVM is a tough call... the myriad versions and OpenJDK vs. Oracle JDK licensing fracture are not helpful for Java. On a technical basis CLR and JVM have rarely bitten me often or badly enough to produce a clear bias--provided the code is sound and there's _no_ _JNI_. Whether JNI's awfulness is really a feature is a discussion for another time...