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Strangely, I think this is a case of "this is something that is going to be done eventually by someone somewhere, so it might as well us". US religious "moralit

Strangely, I think this is a case of "this is something that is going to be done eventually by someone somewhere, so it might as well us". US religious "morality" that dictates we shouldn't "play god" is going to cost the US the leadership position in genetics science and research. It's already code the US in terms of stem cell research.

belorn 12y ago
The religious mantra seems to say that people should not play god using scientific instruments in laboratories. Its perfectly fine to take an active hand in evolution by selective breeding through marriage, thus "remove "bad" genes from a family tree and potentially adding "good" ones.
- lawlessone 12y ago
  Don't forget using prayer as an alternative to medicine and vaccines. It's like the way the ancient Greeks practised exposure on infants.
  - icebraining 12y ago
    What does that have to do with "playing god"? That's asking for the actual one to intervene.
    - vezycash 12y ago
      For the sentence about prayer, he may have meant, that those people might also consider using of modern medicine a form of playing god. Because prayer could have cured the illness. For the second line about Greeks, it's more about Spartans. See http://www.historywiz.com/didyouknow/spartanfamily.htm http://www.historywiz.com/didyouknow/spartanfamily.htm
- phreeza 12y ago
  I would say even that may be somewhat controversial in some circles. One way of playing god almost nobody will argue with is selective breeding of crops and livestock, a practice that has been well established for millenia.
- TeMPOraL 12y ago
  It's like god didn't give men an extendable genetic material injection tool and women a self-contained incubator...
  - iamcurious 12y ago
    Women are recursive in a way men can never be.
    - juliangregorian 12y ago
      This is funny because it demonstrates a truly child-like understanding of genetics and the reproductive process, as well as expressing some sort of freudian longing to be a woman perhaps? Why not say something equally dumb, "Men are penis-havers in a way women can never be."
      - iamcurious 12y ago
        This comment could be shorten to Why not say, "Men are penis-havers in a way women can never be." but even then, it baffles me.
        juliangregorian 12y ago
        Does it? It's an exact mirror of your previous inanity (except mine is actually logical).
DanielBMarkham 12y ago
Western religions (various forms of Christianity) formed under hundreds of years of virtual and real slavery conditions. The Roman empire wasn't exactly the friendliest place to live if you were an outsider. Therefore a big part of the belief system is the value of the individual. IIRC, Christianity was one of the first belief systems to suggest that all people _were_ actually people: up until then, "people" was just part of whichever clan you were in. Other folks were sub-human. So the real question in regards to both abortion and embryo hacking is how much value we place on other humans -- humans of a different color, humans that are babies, humans that disagree with us. Do we treat them as we would want to be treated? Or are they basically disposable? I'm not a religious person, and the theology gets very complicated, but it's not simply a matter of "religion says this must be bad, so I will reject all science and progress!" Folks on both sides of this discussion tend to over-simplify the positions of the others. Didn't believe you were doing that, but I felt the discussion could use a little more clarification.
- EvaK_de 12y ago
  Sometimes Hacker News feels like a really cold place. Today is one of those days - and the tone of this discussion is why I'm shuddering. Please tell me that you at least so much as hesitated an instant before you typed "embryo hacking", please?
  - DanielBMarkham 12y ago
    My purpose was to draw the contrast between what we do as technologists and what kinds of people we are. "Embryo hacking" did that quite nicely. It was jarring, and it was supposed to be jarring.
    - TheOtherHobbes 12y ago
      It's jarring because it's wrong. Hacking DNA is nothing like hacking code. Genes are not code. Genes are visible elements in a much larger system that is horribly complicated, and which no one fully understands. So by hacking embryos you're guaranteeing there will be unexpected results and outright defects. Does anyone have the right to create embryos that are defective? I don't think they do, and I don't think the ethical issues are particularly fuzzy.
refurb 12y ago
It's already code the US in terms of stem cell research. Do you have something to back up that statement? The only US restriction on stem cells is the federal funding of new, embryo-derived stem cell lines. Existing lines can still be used as can stem cells that aren't derived from embryos. Also, private funds can be used for whatever they choose. I think you're overstating the restrictions in the US.
wehadfun 12y ago
China can be the lead in this crazy sh*t

belorn 12y ago

The religious mantra seems to say that people should not play god using scientific instruments in laboratories. Its perfectly fine to take an active hand in evolution by selective breeding through marriage, thus "remove "bad" genes from a family tree and potentially adding "good" ones.

lawlessone 12y ago
Don't forget using prayer as an alternative to medicine and vaccines. It's like the way the ancient Greeks practised exposure on infants.
- icebraining 12y ago
  What does that have to do with "playing god"? That's asking for the actual one to intervene.
  - vezycash 12y ago
    For the sentence about prayer, he may have meant, that those people might also consider using of modern medicine a form of playing god. Because prayer could have cured the illness. For the second line about Greeks, it's more about Spartans. See http://www.historywiz.com/didyouknow/spartanfamily.htm http://www.historywiz.com/didyouknow/spartanfamily.htm
phreeza 12y ago
I would say even that may be somewhat controversial in some circles. One way of playing god almost nobody will argue with is selective breeding of crops and livestock, a practice that has been well established for millenia.
TeMPOraL 12y ago
It's like god didn't give men an extendable genetic material injection tool and women a self-contained incubator...
- iamcurious 12y ago
  Women are recursive in a way men can never be.
  - juliangregorian 12y ago
    This is funny because it demonstrates a truly child-like understanding of genetics and the reproductive process, as well as expressing some sort of freudian longing to be a woman perhaps? Why not say something equally dumb, "Men are penis-havers in a way women can never be."
    - iamcurious 12y ago
      This comment could be shorten to Why not say, "Men are penis-havers in a way women can never be." but even then, it baffles me.
      - juliangregorian 12y ago
        Does it? It's an exact mirror of your previous inanity (except mine is actually logical).

DanielBMarkham 12y ago

Western religions (various forms of Christianity) formed under hundreds of years of virtual and real slavery conditions. The Roman empire wasn't exactly the friendliest place to live if you were an outsider. Therefore a big part of the belief system is the value of the individual. IIRC, Christianity was one of the first belief systems to suggest that all people _were_ actually people: up until then, "people" was just part of whichever clan you were in. Other folks were sub-human. So the real question in regards to both abortion and embryo hacking is how much value we place on other humans -- humans of a different color, humans that are babies, humans that disagree with us. Do we treat them as we would want to be treated? Or are they basically disposable? I'm not a religious person, and the theology gets very complicated, but it's not simply a matter of "religion says this must be bad, so I will reject all science and progress!" Folks on both sides of this discussion tend to over-simplify the positions of the others. Didn't believe you were doing that, but I felt the discussion could use a little more clarification.

EvaK_de 12y ago
Sometimes Hacker News feels like a really cold place. Today is one of those days - and the tone of this discussion is why I'm shuddering. Please tell me that you at least so much as hesitated an instant before you typed "embryo hacking", please?
- DanielBMarkham 12y ago
  My purpose was to draw the contrast between what we do as technologists and what kinds of people we are. "Embryo hacking" did that quite nicely. It was jarring, and it was supposed to be jarring.
  - TheOtherHobbes 12y ago
    It's jarring because it's wrong. Hacking DNA is nothing like hacking code. Genes are not code. Genes are visible elements in a much larger system that is horribly complicated, and which no one fully understands. So by hacking embryos you're guaranteeing there will be unexpected results and outright defects. Does anyone have the right to create embryos that are defective? I don't think they do, and I don't think the ethical issues are particularly fuzzy.

refurb 12y ago

It's already code the US in terms of stem cell research. Do you have something to back up that statement? The only US restriction on stem cells is the federal funding of new, embryo-derived stem cell lines. Existing lines can still be used as can stem cells that aren't derived from embryos. Also, private funds can be used for whatever they choose. I think you're overstating the restrictions in the US.

wehadfun 12y ago

China can be the lead in this crazy sh*t