4 ms·

It's really really bad, but people will continue doing it until commands/things become so easy we can actually understand what we're doing. But it isn't all th

It's really really bad, but people will continue doing it until commands/things become so easy we can actually understand what we're doing. But it isn't all that hard to understand a clean Unix. I have never copied or typed a command that I don't understand. One problem may be that most Unices these days is not as clean anymore as, say OpenBSD or NetBSD. E.g. the recent X stack, with D-BUS, various *Kits, etc. is quite opaque. This madness was primarily contained to the desktop and proprietary Unices, but seems to spread through server Linuxes these days as well (and no, this is not an anti-systemd rant).

toyg 12y ago
> But it isn't all that hard to understand a clean Unix. I have never copied or typed a command that I don't understand. Well, good for you. I can assure you that it's not the case for almost anyone who approached Linux after the likes of Mandrake were released and/or tried to make it work on anything different from a traditional server. I'm all for trying to understand what one is doing (and I wholeheartedly agree with TFA's point), but the reality is that very few people in the world really understand all intricacies of one's operating system. This does not excuse poor security practices, but it explains their background.
- Twirrim 12y ago
  That's why you get someone who is capable of understanding it. You wouldn't hire some high school kid who's just about taught themselves HTML by reading a book for a week, and get them to write your web application from ground up. You'd hire someone who knows what they're doing. Why is it seen as any different for Operations work? There is a reason systems administration is a skilled field, and a reason they're paid on a par with developers.
  - redblacktree 12y ago
    I think the reason this happens less and less is that sysadmins are cost centers, not revenue generators. When you have developers do that work (poorly or not), you don't have a group that's purely cost. Those costs get hidden in the development group.
    - stephenr 12y ago
      Whoops replied to wrong comment! However yes the issue of a team that "doesn't make money" is very real. Maybe you it should be "marketed" like legal or accounting: it doesn't make money, it saves money caused by SNAFUBAR situations.
    - acveilleux 12y ago
      Indeed, the costs merely get hidden and a lot of system decisions boil down to one of: 1. I saw it done that way in some blog. 2. We did it like that at my last job. 3. Seems like it works.
  - sshconnection 12y ago
    That high school kid needs to install a web server. Is he going to hire someone? No. He's going to copy a curl command.
    - c22 12y ago
      It's probably okay for him.
    - subway 12y ago
      I expect her to say "How do I install software on this platform?" "Oh! /(apt|yum|dnf)/!" /(apt-get|yum|dnf) install (apache2|httpd|nginx|lighttpd)/
- danieldk 12y ago
  I'm all for trying to understand what one is doing (and I wholeheartedly agree with TFA's point), but the reality is that very few people in the world really understand all intricacies of one's operating system. One of the problems (as I tried to argue) is that most Unices have become far more complex. The question is if the extra complexity is warranted on a server system, especially if bare Unix (OpenBSD serves as a good example here) was not that hard to understand. Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean that we should look back. Another possibility would be to deploy services as unikernels (see Mirage OS) that use a small, thin, well-understood library layer on top of e.g. Xen, so that there isn't really an exploitable operating system underneath.
corobo 12y ago
> I have never copied or typed a command that I don't understand. To note that it's trivial to change what goes into the clipboard too. Copying and pasting commands from potentially untrustworthy sites should be ruled out too, even if understood
digi_owl 12y ago
What seems to be the source of this push is that some entity wants Windows Group Policy like control over what users can and can't do etc. This because they want to retain their ability to shop for off the shelf hardware, while getting away from a platform that has proves less than functional for mission critical operations (never mind being locked to a single vendor). What seems to be happening is that there is a growing disdain for power users and "admins". The only two classes that seems to count are developers and users, and the latter needs to be protected from themselves for their own good (and developer sanity).

toyg 12y ago

> But it isn't all that hard to understand a clean Unix. I have never copied or typed a command that I don't understand. Well, good for you. I can assure you that it's not the case for almost anyone who approached Linux after the likes of Mandrake were released and/or tried to make it work on anything different from a traditional server. I'm all for trying to understand what one is doing (and I wholeheartedly agree with TFA's point), but the reality is that very few people in the world really understand all intricacies of one's operating system. This does not excuse poor security practices, but it explains their background.

Twirrim 12y ago
That's why you get someone who is capable of understanding it. You wouldn't hire some high school kid who's just about taught themselves HTML by reading a book for a week, and get them to write your web application from ground up. You'd hire someone who knows what they're doing. Why is it seen as any different for Operations work? There is a reason systems administration is a skilled field, and a reason they're paid on a par with developers.
- redblacktree 12y ago
  I think the reason this happens less and less is that sysadmins are cost centers, not revenue generators. When you have developers do that work (poorly or not), you don't have a group that's purely cost. Those costs get hidden in the development group.
  - stephenr 12y ago
    Whoops replied to wrong comment! However yes the issue of a team that "doesn't make money" is very real. Maybe you it should be "marketed" like legal or accounting: it doesn't make money, it saves money caused by SNAFUBAR situations.
  - acveilleux 12y ago
    Indeed, the costs merely get hidden and a lot of system decisions boil down to one of: 1. I saw it done that way in some blog. 2. We did it like that at my last job. 3. Seems like it works.
- sshconnection 12y ago
  That high school kid needs to install a web server. Is he going to hire someone? No. He's going to copy a curl command.
  - c22 12y ago
    It's probably okay for him.
  - subway 12y ago
    I expect her to say "How do I install software on this platform?" "Oh! /(apt|yum|dnf)/!" /(apt-get|yum|dnf) install (apache2|httpd|nginx|lighttpd)/
danieldk 12y ago
I'm all for trying to understand what one is doing (and I wholeheartedly agree with TFA's point), but the reality is that very few people in the world really understand all intricacies of one's operating system. One of the problems (as I tried to argue) is that most Unices have become far more complex. The question is if the extra complexity is warranted on a server system, especially if bare Unix (OpenBSD serves as a good example here) was not that hard to understand. Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean that we should look back. Another possibility would be to deploy services as unikernels (see Mirage OS) that use a small, thin, well-understood library layer on top of e.g. Xen, so that there isn't really an exploitable operating system underneath.

corobo 12y ago

> I have never copied or typed a command that I don't understand. To note that it's trivial to change what goes into the clipboard too. Copying and pasting commands from potentially untrustworthy sites should be ruled out too, even if understood

digi_owl 12y ago

What seems to be the source of this push is that some entity wants Windows Group Policy like control over what users can and can't do etc. This because they want to retain their ability to shop for off the shelf hardware, while getting away from a platform that has proves less than functional for mission critical operations (never mind being locked to a single vendor). What seems to be happening is that there is a growing disdain for power users and "admins". The only two classes that seems to count are developers and users, and the latter needs to be protected from themselves for their own good (and developer sanity).