4 ms·

Au contraire, civilians DO push back against oppression, and when they do the government gets the message and stays back for a long time. A couple decades ago,

Au contraire, civilians DO push back against oppression, and when they do the government gets the message and stays back for a long time. A couple decades ago, the government attempted to stage some high-profile violent raids (Waco; Ruby Ridge) over some very petty issues (alleged failure to pay a $200 tax; cut a gun barrel 1cm too short), and were immediately resisted with significant firepower; the attempts were spectacular failures, and while the intended targets mostly died in the conflict, the government refrained from such behavior again for nearly 15 years. Time having passed, police/DHS are ramping up their domestic firepower and increasing their militarized responses to mundane crime. Criminals being (on the whole) the targets, little has been done in response. However, a similar violent act was nearly perpetrated on regular citizens at Brady Ranch last year, and there was a very tense armed standoff whereby the federal agents backed down, having been given the message again. Alas, many confuse the lack of frequent armed resistance with no resistance. Resistance is rarely necessary, when the other side gets the reminder and acts according to it. There is, unfortunately, a growing tendency to dismiss that reminder again, and there is, unfortunately, a growing number of citizens AND government agents who are waiting for, if not looking for, another heavily armed violent encounter.

vacri 12y ago
What you have just described is not "pushing back against oppression", it's "fighting like a dog when your back is to the wall". Laws aren't changing, SWAT teams and tanks are still proliferating amongst the police, and It's a pity that your national dialogue around defence from oppression sits around "firearms" rather than "behaving ethically". So what if Waco and Ruby Ridge and Brady Ranch all happened - the US still has the highest number of prisoners per capita (by a factor of five over other western democracies - a rate that really took off around the time of Waco);police are still militarising and buying tanks, throwing in SWAT teams; making bigger and more encompassing three-letter-agencies. The edifice barely even stumbled; business as usual. If anything, the love of firearms and solving problems by force is encouraging the militarisation of police and heavy-handedness with the outcasts of society.
- ctdonath 12y ago
  In the USA, it's axiomatic to not consider armed active resistance until your back is to the wall. Thing is, when that point comes one does not fight like a dog (unarmed), but with such firepower that the oppressor feels compelled to use SWAT teams and tanks ... and even then hesitates to do so. Laws are changing, slowly. The next Presidential election should prove interesting in this regard. Interestingly, those promoting defense from oppression via "firearms" are "behaving ethically" - licensed gun owners are among the most law-abiding & ethical citizens (popular quote: "an armed society is a polite society"). That Waco & Ruby Ridge & Brady Ranch all happened IS significant, because they were followed by a significant drop in violent raids, militarization notwithstanding. Don't conflate resistance to oppression with incarceration rates, as the two categories practically do not overlap. The militarization likely has more to do with police desperately wanting to minimize their risk (statistics don't matter to a cop when he's the one at grave risk of being killed), and a criminal subculture which is he11-bent on violating clear laws (if criminals won't "go quietly", and won't stop engaging in unlawful behavior, that leaves the state little choice but resort to the natural foundation of law: force and incarceration).
  - Frondo 12y ago
    "licensed gun owners are among the most law-abiding & ethical citizens" Law-abiding? Ethical? I don't think there is any actual basis for your claim (except that you would like it to be so, maybe). After all, Cliven Bundy--who I think you mentioned earlier--broke the law for decades. When the democratically-elected government came to enact its penalty for that law-breaking, a lot of white guys with guns came from all around the country to stop the justice system from doing its job.
  - vacri 12y ago
    an armed society is a polite society This is such a throwaway slogan. Go check out the worst spots of Africa. Plenty of arms, not much politeness. Also, apart from not being true, it also encourages politeness for the wrong reason: fear of arms. Politeness should be due to respect of people, not fear of what they might do. It's just as easy to say "an unarmed society is a polite society". There's not much difference between the US and Australia when it comes to politeness, and our society is unarmed. Japan is unarmed, and politeness is a keystone of their society. The British are unarmed, and their stereotype is one of unsufferable politeness. Don't conflate resistance to oppression with incarceration rates, as the two categories practically do not overlap. I wasn't conflating them, I was using it as yet another metric of US government oppression, which the armed population isn't stopping. Your last paragraph is also stating that the police are militarising due to the armed population, which is kind of my point - rather than prevent oppression, the armed population is actually doing more to increase it. Also, I'm not sue what you mean by 'significant drop in violent raids', given that SWAT raids are skyrocketing, an order of magnitude more than they used to be. It's not really a victory if there's only a brief pause before business-as-usual continues.

vacri 12y ago

What you have just described is not "pushing back against oppression", it's "fighting like a dog when your back is to the wall". Laws aren't changing, SWAT teams and tanks are still proliferating amongst the police, and It's a pity that your national dialogue around defence from oppression sits around "firearms" rather than "behaving ethically". So what if Waco and Ruby Ridge and Brady Ranch all happened - the US still has the highest number of prisoners per capita (by a factor of five over other western democracies - a rate that really took off around the time of Waco);police are still militarising and buying tanks, throwing in SWAT teams; making bigger and more encompassing three-letter-agencies. The edifice barely even stumbled; business as usual. If anything, the love of firearms and solving problems by force is encouraging the militarisation of police and heavy-handedness with the outcasts of society.

ctdonath 12y ago
In the USA, it's axiomatic to not consider armed active resistance until your back is to the wall. Thing is, when that point comes one does not fight like a dog (unarmed), but with such firepower that the oppressor feels compelled to use SWAT teams and tanks ... and even then hesitates to do so. Laws are changing, slowly. The next Presidential election should prove interesting in this regard. Interestingly, those promoting defense from oppression via "firearms" are "behaving ethically" - licensed gun owners are among the most law-abiding & ethical citizens (popular quote: "an armed society is a polite society"). That Waco & Ruby Ridge & Brady Ranch all happened IS significant, because they were followed by a significant drop in violent raids, militarization notwithstanding. Don't conflate resistance to oppression with incarceration rates, as the two categories practically do not overlap. The militarization likely has more to do with police desperately wanting to minimize their risk (statistics don't matter to a cop when he's the one at grave risk of being killed), and a criminal subculture which is he11-bent on violating clear laws (if criminals won't "go quietly", and won't stop engaging in unlawful behavior, that leaves the state little choice but resort to the natural foundation of law: force and incarceration).
- Frondo 12y ago
  "licensed gun owners are among the most law-abiding & ethical citizens" Law-abiding? Ethical? I don't think there is any actual basis for your claim (except that you would like it to be so, maybe). After all, Cliven Bundy--who I think you mentioned earlier--broke the law for decades. When the democratically-elected government came to enact its penalty for that law-breaking, a lot of white guys with guns came from all around the country to stop the justice system from doing its job.
- vacri 12y ago
  an armed society is a polite society This is such a throwaway slogan. Go check out the worst spots of Africa. Plenty of arms, not much politeness. Also, apart from not being true, it also encourages politeness for the wrong reason: fear of arms. Politeness should be due to respect of people, not fear of what they might do. It's just as easy to say "an unarmed society is a polite society". There's not much difference between the US and Australia when it comes to politeness, and our society is unarmed. Japan is unarmed, and politeness is a keystone of their society. The British are unarmed, and their stereotype is one of unsufferable politeness. Don't conflate resistance to oppression with incarceration rates, as the two categories practically do not overlap. I wasn't conflating them, I was using it as yet another metric of US government oppression, which the armed population isn't stopping. Your last paragraph is also stating that the police are militarising due to the armed population, which is kind of my point - rather than prevent oppression, the armed population is actually doing more to increase it. Also, I'm not sue what you mean by 'significant drop in violent raids', given that SWAT raids are skyrocketing, an order of magnitude more than they used to be. It's not really a victory if there's only a brief pause before business-as-usual continues.