4 ms·

What's really wrong with this? As a provider of goods or services, I should have the right to say, "I'm only renting you this, not selling it to you. If you wa

What's really wrong with this? As a provider of goods or services, I should have the right to say, "I'm only renting you this, not selling it to you. If you want to buy it, go see someone else." If I build a house, I should be able to rent it out, and not sell it if I want to keep it. If the market demands builders to sell it, some will find a way. There's no intrinsic right to forcing people to have an option to buy. If I make something that requires tedious upkeep, and will hurt my reputation if it breaks down, shouldn't it be ok for me to say, "I'm only going to rent this to you, and will take care of the upkeep myself."? (Example: A piece of machinery in a factory) Uber is selling rides. Should they be forced to sell cars too? (ok, that may be a little stretch, but it's along the same line of thought) If enough people want to fully own cars and trucks, they'll go somewhere else and drive JD and GM out of business.

redblacktree 11y ago
I think the problem with this line of thinking is that most people think they're buying a car (including on board software). If it were clear to everyone that you are in fact only leasing the software, it might be better.
- LLWM 11y ago
  How can that be made any more clear than it already is? Pretty much all software a typical consumer ever uses works this way.
  - redblacktree 11y ago
    But non-tech people think of computers and phones as running software, not their cars. In the car, it's just a "radio" or "navigation system."
hackuser 11y ago
> What's really wrong with this? As a provider of goods or services, I should have the right to say, "I'm only renting you this, not selling it to you. If you want to buy it, go see someone else." ... It's a good question, but an important consideration is whether your customer has the option of saying no. For example, if you are a small farmer, you can't really negotiate with tractor manufacturers because you lack the market power; you just take what they give you. If they all deny you ownership, you're stuck. Consider someone who wants a smartphone that doesn't track them, a credit card without waiving legal rights ... I was thinking the other day of people who might have been opposed to lead in gasoline (I assume there must have been some), but they had no choice. Their fate was determined by those who had the market power to control the technology. Also, most people don't undertand the implications of what they are buying. Nobody has time to study and learn all that.
- LLWM 11y ago
  Just because you want an option doesn't mean you should get it. Sometimes (most of the time) what this weirdo wants is completely unreasonable. For example, how is a cell phone going to contact a tower without giving away its location, if for no other reason than it can only contact towers within a certain limited distance?
- mathattack 11y ago
  Do we really want to force companies to give the option, rather than the market? I'm not 100% Ayn Rand, but my tendency is to let consumers drive what they want to pay for. If there is profit in giving people what they ask for, someone will generally do it. This isn't to say that market failures don't exist - they do. I'm just skeptical when people with agendas point them out without proof.
  - hackuser 11y ago
    > If there is profit in giving people what they ask for, someone will generally do it. Ideally, yes, but: 1) Much that is valuable to poeple or to society does not maximize profit and is not provided by the marketplace [1] 2) the market isn't really free; for example, companies use their power (politically and in the market) and collude (explicitly and implicitly) to protect their profits and marketshare, and 3) consumers can't be educated about everything they buy; there simply isn't enough time or available resources; therefore vendors, staffed with industry experts, can easily take advantage of them. > Do we really want to force companies to give the option ... I don't mean to play down this concern, which is a serious one for me too. [1] As examples: The technology you are using to read this posting, from protocols to your possibly FOSS browser; almost all knowledge generated at academic institutions, from the theory of relativity to vaccinations to knowledge of society; the security provided by soldiers; our political system, etc.

redblacktree 11y ago

I think the problem with this line of thinking is that most people think they're buying a car (including on board software). If it were clear to everyone that you are in fact only leasing the software, it might be better.

LLWM 11y ago
How can that be made any more clear than it already is? Pretty much all software a typical consumer ever uses works this way.
- redblacktree 11y ago
  But non-tech people think of computers and phones as running software, not their cars. In the car, it's just a "radio" or "navigation system."

hackuser 11y ago

> What's really wrong with this? As a provider of goods or services, I should have the right to say, "I'm only renting you this, not selling it to you. If you want to buy it, go see someone else." ... It's a good question, but an important consideration is whether your customer has the option of saying no. For example, if you are a small farmer, you can't really negotiate with tractor manufacturers because you lack the market power; you just take what they give you. If they all deny you ownership, you're stuck. Consider someone who wants a smartphone that doesn't track them, a credit card without waiving legal rights ... I was thinking the other day of people who might have been opposed to lead in gasoline (I assume there must have been some), but they had no choice. Their fate was determined by those who had the market power to control the technology. Also, most people don't undertand the implications of what they are buying. Nobody has time to study and learn all that.

LLWM 11y ago
Just because you want an option doesn't mean you should get it. Sometimes (most of the time) what this weirdo wants is completely unreasonable. For example, how is a cell phone going to contact a tower without giving away its location, if for no other reason than it can only contact towers within a certain limited distance?
mathattack 11y ago
Do we really want to force companies to give the option, rather than the market? I'm not 100% Ayn Rand, but my tendency is to let consumers drive what they want to pay for. If there is profit in giving people what they ask for, someone will generally do it. This isn't to say that market failures don't exist - they do. I'm just skeptical when people with agendas point them out without proof.
- hackuser 11y ago
  > If there is profit in giving people what they ask for, someone will generally do it. Ideally, yes, but: 1) Much that is valuable to poeple or to society does not maximize profit and is not provided by the marketplace [1] 2) the market isn't really free; for example, companies use their power (politically and in the market) and collude (explicitly and implicitly) to protect their profits and marketshare, and 3) consumers can't be educated about everything they buy; there simply isn't enough time or available resources; therefore vendors, staffed with industry experts, can easily take advantage of them. > Do we really want to force companies to give the option ... I don't mean to play down this concern, which is a serious one for me too. [1] As examples: The technology you are using to read this posting, from protocols to your possibly FOSS browser; almost all knowledge generated at academic institutions, from the theory of relativity to vaccinations to knowledge of society; the security provided by soldiers; our political system, etc.