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This country is also on the verge of having its first war. The Liberland flag has already been removed by another micro-nation that claims to have laid claim on

by tinco 12y ago

This country is also on the verge of having its first war. The Liberland flag has already been removed by another micro-nation that claims to have laid claim on the land just over a month earlier: http://www.paraduin.nl/?p=173 http://www.paraduin.nl/?p=173 Unfortunately, the Paraduin people seem a bit nutty to me. An excerpt from their constitution, which is in Dutch: "Paraduin is een monarchie. De titel van de monarch is prins(es), voluit Prins(es) van Paraduin. Monarch zijn Prins Ogidius en diens wettige opvolgers. De opvolging wordt bij wet geregeld." Translates to: "Paraduin is a monarchy. The monarch holds the title of Prince(ss), in full the Prince(ss) of Paraduin. Monarchs are Prince Ogidius and his lawful successors. Succession is determined by law." Paraduin itself is something like a religion, they (if there's more than one person, I'm not sure) believe there's a magical parallel universe from which some people are fleeing unto the earth we live on.

k__ 12y ago
Something like this happend to this oilrig land "sealand". People think it's easy to found your own country. Just find unclaimed space and be done with it. But there are many rich people out in the world who would hire armies to kill for such a spot.
- tinco 12y ago
  That's a very good point. Obviously the only way any country can be bootstrapped is with military power. If Liberland is serious they should immediately engage Paraduin with a show of force. Secondly, I think the best course of action would be to secure funding for buying a protectorate like situation with either Croatia or Serbia. Though I don't know what the political consequences of such a situation would be. Imagine if from those 160.000 signups they could get 5.000 people to pay $1000 in taxes per year, that could fund a Serbian police/military officer and a small office. Just his presence and his commitment to engage in violent conflict with aggressors could deter any other party. (Killing him would be an act-of-war or at least a criminal act against his country)
  - mikeyouse 12y ago
    It seems like killing the only security officer in a country would probably be the end of the war.. Most of the expressions of interest I've seen are explicitly because people think they'll be able to stop paying taxes so I'm curious what kind of voluntary funds they would be able to raise.
    - dragonwriter 12y ago
      I think the point was that killing a Serbian military officer would start a war with Serbia. Of course, the challenging part would be convincing Serbia to back the scheme; if Serbia was going to defend the territory they'd be more likely to claim it themselves.
      - salex89 12y ago
        Serbia has no intention to claim this territory whatsoever. Serbia treats the Danube as the border and that is it. The new Danube stream that is, the one now dividing the two countries. There is an old Danube stream which is almost completely gone decades ago, and Croatia considers it its border. The reason is that there are some other inversely interweaving parts which are pretty and maybe a nice tourist attraction and both countries want them. So, accepting Liberland as their own territory would mean waving the right to those other, more profitable, territories. But TBH, using the old stream as the border would just cause more trouble. To be fair, I'm a Serb and I fully welcome Liberland. Since the two neighbors cannot decide on their boundaries, I do not see why anyone else cannot take a no-mans land. The issue is that we must define our borders sooner or later, and I am afraid there will be no more space for Liberland. But, that will be Croatia's business then, I hope :D .
        dragonwriter 12y ago
        Neither Serbia nor Croatia claim the land because they both -- under different interpretations of the underlying agreement -- recognize it as land belonging to the other under an agreement between the two of them. This also makes it unlikely that either would act as a guarantor of the independence of a new sovereignty that sought to establish itself on the land, or even to recognize such a sovereignty.
- gadders 12y ago
  RDL from here lived on Sealand, I believe: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3766509 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3766509
- drzaiusapelord 12y ago
  >But there are many rich people out in the world who would hire armies to kill for such a spot. This is tribalism (or our modern version - nation states) in a nutshell. For all the hand wringing here about NSA SIGINT, defense spending, etc the reality is that the world is dangerous place. Not too long ago "liberal intellectuals", "russophiles," and "policy experts" were telling us how Russia was just going to eventually become a defacto if not outright EU member, would never invade a neighbor, never target civilians explicitly, never annex land, etc. These people forgot the golden rule of civilization: war happens.
  - narrowrail 12y ago
    While taking this opportunity to 'demonstrate' your point of view (and how it's justified) concerning military/defense, it is just an opinion. I'd say it's more of a cultural sickness, than a human necessity. At least most people claim to believe in the teachings of Jesus and Gandhi, even if they can't find a way to walk the walk (just talk the talk).
    - drzaiusapelord 12y ago
      Considering the worst mass murderers, despots, and warmongers of history were usually devoutly religious, I really, really don't think you want to play the religion card here. Heck, by far our most Jesusy president, GWB, sent over 100,000 Iraqis to their deaths by starting a major conflict with them with trumped up intel and knowing full well the civilian cost would be huge. Hitler considered himself a good Christian. Putin is a good Christian loved by the Orthodox church. Iran beheads women who supposedly cheat on their husbands yet as a theocracy they follow Allah's benevolence. The religious middle-east in general is humanity's armpit. Need I go on?
      - gedrap 12y ago
        >>> Hitler considered himself a good Christian Well, sort of a nitpick but Hitler and religion is a bit more complicated than that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler
amyjess 12y ago
> Paraduin is een monarchie. De titel van de monarch is prins(es) I've always found the similarities between Dutch and English fascinating. I can actually understand that!
jules 12y ago
Paraduin is an april's fools joke: http://www.paraduin.nl/?page_id=9 http://www.paraduin.nl/?page_id=9
djloche 12y ago
A country establishes itself as a legitimate country in the international community by surviving war.
jbnicolai 12y ago
Simply commenting to confirm the translation is (perhaps surprisingly) accurate.
jbnicolai 12y ago
Simply commenting to confirm the translation is (to me, surprisingly) accurate.

by tinco 12y ago

k__ 12y ago

Something like this happend to this oilrig land "sealand". People think it's easy to found your own country. Just find unclaimed space and be done with it. But there are many rich people out in the world who would hire armies to kill for such a spot.

tinco 12y ago
That's a very good point. Obviously the only way any country can be bootstrapped is with military power. If Liberland is serious they should immediately engage Paraduin with a show of force. Secondly, I think the best course of action would be to secure funding for buying a protectorate like situation with either Croatia or Serbia. Though I don't know what the political consequences of such a situation would be. Imagine if from those 160.000 signups they could get 5.000 people to pay $1000 in taxes per year, that could fund a Serbian police/military officer and a small office. Just his presence and his commitment to engage in violent conflict with aggressors could deter any other party. (Killing him would be an act-of-war or at least a criminal act against his country)
- mikeyouse 12y ago
  It seems like killing the only security officer in a country would probably be the end of the war.. Most of the expressions of interest I've seen are explicitly because people think they'll be able to stop paying taxes so I'm curious what kind of voluntary funds they would be able to raise.
  - dragonwriter 12y ago
    I think the point was that killing a Serbian military officer would start a war with Serbia. Of course, the challenging part would be convincing Serbia to back the scheme; if Serbia was going to defend the territory they'd be more likely to claim it themselves.
    - salex89 12y ago
      Serbia has no intention to claim this territory whatsoever. Serbia treats the Danube as the border and that is it. The new Danube stream that is, the one now dividing the two countries. There is an old Danube stream which is almost completely gone decades ago, and Croatia considers it its border. The reason is that there are some other inversely interweaving parts which are pretty and maybe a nice tourist attraction and both countries want them. So, accepting Liberland as their own territory would mean waving the right to those other, more profitable, territories. But TBH, using the old stream as the border would just cause more trouble. To be fair, I'm a Serb and I fully welcome Liberland. Since the two neighbors cannot decide on their boundaries, I do not see why anyone else cannot take a no-mans land. The issue is that we must define our borders sooner or later, and I am afraid there will be no more space for Liberland. But, that will be Croatia's business then, I hope :D .
      - dragonwriter 12y ago
        Neither Serbia nor Croatia claim the land because they both -- under different interpretations of the underlying agreement -- recognize it as land belonging to the other under an agreement between the two of them. This also makes it unlikely that either would act as a guarantor of the independence of a new sovereignty that sought to establish itself on the land, or even to recognize such a sovereignty.
gadders 12y ago
RDL from here lived on Sealand, I believe: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3766509 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3766509
drzaiusapelord 12y ago
>But there are many rich people out in the world who would hire armies to kill for such a spot. This is tribalism (or our modern version - nation states) in a nutshell. For all the hand wringing here about NSA SIGINT, defense spending, etc the reality is that the world is dangerous place. Not too long ago "liberal intellectuals", "russophiles," and "policy experts" were telling us how Russia was just going to eventually become a defacto if not outright EU member, would never invade a neighbor, never target civilians explicitly, never annex land, etc. These people forgot the golden rule of civilization: war happens.
- narrowrail 12y ago
  While taking this opportunity to 'demonstrate' your point of view (and how it's justified) concerning military/defense, it is just an opinion. I'd say it's more of a cultural sickness, than a human necessity. At least most people claim to believe in the teachings of Jesus and Gandhi, even if they can't find a way to walk the walk (just talk the talk).
  - drzaiusapelord 12y ago
    Considering the worst mass murderers, despots, and warmongers of history were usually devoutly religious, I really, really don't think you want to play the religion card here. Heck, by far our most Jesusy president, GWB, sent over 100,000 Iraqis to their deaths by starting a major conflict with them with trumped up intel and knowing full well the civilian cost would be huge. Hitler considered himself a good Christian. Putin is a good Christian loved by the Orthodox church. Iran beheads women who supposedly cheat on their husbands yet as a theocracy they follow Allah's benevolence. The religious middle-east in general is humanity's armpit. Need I go on?
    - gedrap 12y ago
      >>> Hitler considered himself a good Christian Well, sort of a nitpick but Hitler and religion is a bit more complicated than that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler

amyjess 12y ago

> Paraduin is een monarchie. De titel van de monarch is prins(es) I've always found the similarities between Dutch and English fascinating. I can actually understand that!

jules 12y ago

Paraduin is an april's fools joke: http://www.paraduin.nl/?page_id=9 http://www.paraduin.nl/?page_id=9

djloche 12y ago

A country establishes itself as a legitimate country in the international community by surviving war.

jbnicolai 12y ago

Simply commenting to confirm the translation is (perhaps surprisingly) accurate.

jbnicolai 12y ago

Simply commenting to confirm the translation is (to me, surprisingly) accurate.