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Agreed--which goes for the OP as well. I think my point is this place is more PG's than it is OP's, and more than that, it's unlikely this post will enact any

by mod 12y ago

Agreed--which goes for the OP as well. I think my point is this place is more PG's than it is OP's, and more than that, it's unlikely this post will enact any change given the stance of PG on the issue. He's not involved now, but certainly his opinion still carries weight.

stephenr 12y ago
Nothing ever changes if people just blindly accept the status quo. I've yet to see anyone explain how down votes can be a valid response to both alternative/different ideas AND abusive/argumentative/etc comments.
- maxerickson 12y ago
  Rules for a valid downvote: Someone clicked the button and it wasn't part of a blatant pattern (so abuse happens when someone tries to downvote every comment by someone else, or something like that). Rules for a valid upvote: Someone clicked the button and it wasn't part of a blatant pattern. How do you know why someone voted? You read their mind. This is just as easy for users to do as it is for the site. Out of this horrifying ambiguity, you end up in situations where you might disagree with a comment and consider downvoting it because of that, but end up upvoting it because you step back from that feeling and decide that it is an interesting contribution to the discussion. Or you might not decide and thus not click either button. If you think of the voting as a way to improve the ordering of the comments on the page and not as a way of doling out punishments and rewards, the lack of a precise specification makes more sense (because you hope a preponderance of users want the comments to appear in an interesting order, not to click and clack to suit their worldview).
  - stephenr 12y ago
    > If you think of the voting as a way to improve the ordering of the comments on the page and not as a way of doling out punishments and rewards But we aren't just talking about changing the order of things. Down voted comments get hidden This is the entire argument - opinions and points of view that go against the "hive mind" are regularly down voted into oblivion until no one can see them. > the lack of a precise specification makes more sense Sorry, but no. When moderation and user agree/disagree functionality is mangled like this, nothing makes sense. > (because you hope a preponderance of users want the comments to appear in an interesting order, not to click and clack to suit their worldview). That's exactly what happens though.
    - maxerickson 12y ago
      That's exactly what happens though. I only made the point implicitly, but you have no idea if this is the case or not. Nor do the moderators, even though they have much greater visibility into the voting dynamics. Nor do I. Because I can say I voted for whatever reason I want, even if I really only downvote comments that contain a capital "V". I don't particularly see a hive mind here (but maybe I'm too much a part of it), the majority of the comments that get presented as brave iconoclastic free thinking aren't really.
    - mod 12y ago
      Maybe an appropriate response is to stop hiding comments, then. I personally make sure to read all of the (non-short) greyed out comments as usually I find the perspective interesting (and wrong, but interesting). I wouldn't care if it was flagged somehow but left entirely visible.
      - stephenr 12y ago
        Exactly my point. There is nothing wrong with indicating you disagree with something. There is something very wrong when disagreement with an opinion leads to the removal of that opinion.
        maxerickson 12y ago
        There is an option in your profile "Show Dead". Turn it on. You can now see anything that has not been directly deleted (deletion is something a user can do to their own content for a short time, the mods mark stuff as dead instead of deleting it).
        mod 12y ago
        He's not talking about comments from dead users, rather the near-impossible to read comments that have been downvoted.
        maxerickson 12y ago

by mod 12y ago

stephenr 12y ago

Nothing ever changes if people just blindly accept the status quo. I've yet to see anyone explain how down votes can be a valid response to both alternative/different ideas AND abusive/argumentative/etc comments.

maxerickson 12y ago
Rules for a valid downvote: Someone clicked the button and it wasn't part of a blatant pattern (so abuse happens when someone tries to downvote every comment by someone else, or something like that). Rules for a valid upvote: Someone clicked the button and it wasn't part of a blatant pattern. How do you know why someone voted? You read their mind. This is just as easy for users to do as it is for the site. Out of this horrifying ambiguity, you end up in situations where you might disagree with a comment and consider downvoting it because of that, but end up upvoting it because you step back from that feeling and decide that it is an interesting contribution to the discussion. Or you might not decide and thus not click either button. If you think of the voting as a way to improve the ordering of the comments on the page and not as a way of doling out punishments and rewards, the lack of a precise specification makes more sense (because you hope a preponderance of users want the comments to appear in an interesting order, not to click and clack to suit their worldview).
- stephenr 12y ago
  > If you think of the voting as a way to improve the ordering of the comments on the page and not as a way of doling out punishments and rewards But we aren't just talking about changing the order of things. Down voted comments get hidden This is the entire argument - opinions and points of view that go against the "hive mind" are regularly down voted into oblivion until no one can see them. > the lack of a precise specification makes more sense Sorry, but no. When moderation and user agree/disagree functionality is mangled like this, nothing makes sense. > (because you hope a preponderance of users want the comments to appear in an interesting order, not to click and clack to suit their worldview). That's exactly what happens though.
  - maxerickson 12y ago
    That's exactly what happens though. I only made the point implicitly, but you have no idea if this is the case or not. Nor do the moderators, even though they have much greater visibility into the voting dynamics. Nor do I. Because I can say I voted for whatever reason I want, even if I really only downvote comments that contain a capital "V". I don't particularly see a hive mind here (but maybe I'm too much a part of it), the majority of the comments that get presented as brave iconoclastic free thinking aren't really.
  - mod 12y ago
    Maybe an appropriate response is to stop hiding comments, then. I personally make sure to read all of the (non-short) greyed out comments as usually I find the perspective interesting (and wrong, but interesting). I wouldn't care if it was flagged somehow but left entirely visible.
    - stephenr 12y ago
      Exactly my point. There is nothing wrong with indicating you disagree with something. There is something very wrong when disagreement with an opinion leads to the removal of that opinion.
      - maxerickson 12y ago
        There is an option in your profile "Show Dead". Turn it on. You can now see anything that has not been directly deleted (deletion is something a user can do to their own content for a short time, the mods mark stuff as dead instead of deleting it).
        mod 12y ago
        He's not talking about comments from dead users, rather the near-impossible to read comments that have been downvoted.
        maxerickson 12y ago