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I'm personally not convinced why the three points you raised are affecting blacks more than anybody else. Ie - they are all unquantifiable things with no clear

by omonra 12y ago

I'm personally not convinced why the three points you raised are affecting blacks more than anybody else. Ie - they are all unquantifiable things with no clear bearing on blacks vs poor whites or other disadvantaged groups. Yes we have hard figures - such as the murder rate (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/josh-sugarmann/murder-rate-for-black-ame_b_4702228.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/josh-sugarmann/murder-rate-for...): The homicide rate for black male victims was 31.67 per 100,000. In comparison, the overall homicide rate for male victims was 7.13 per 100,000. For white male victims, the homicide rate was 3.85 per 100,000. So I fail to see how behavior by the criminal justice system forces black men to kill each other at a rate that's almost 10x of whites.

haberman 12y ago
> I'm personally not convinced why the three points you raised are affecting blacks more than anybody else. Here's the thing: even if I never convince you of that, all you have to be convinced of is these things are a problem and should be fixed. Hopefully you believe that obvious conflicts of interest should not exist? Hopefully you believe that cops should not shoot unarmed people in the back while they are running away, and then plant evidence on them? Great. Because that's all it takes to believe that these are problems worth fixing. If you instead drag your feet and say that it's all black people's fault and they should fix it, you're doing exactly what you accuse them of doing.
- omonra 12y ago
  Hold on a sec. There are 2 separate issues we have: 1. I completely agree that the issues you raised ARE a problem and should be fixed. 100% with you. 2. At the same time I don't think they are the culprit that's responsible for large black crime rate (with attendant thousands dead and 1m+ in prison).
  - haberman 12y ago
    > I completely agree that the issues you raised ARE a problem and should be fixed. 100% with you. Great! Common ground. > At the same time I don't think they are the culprit that's responsible for large black crime rate (with attendant thousands dead and 1m+ in prison). As I mentioned in my first message, I don't think there is a single "the culprit," I think it is a large and complicated problem with many interrelated causes. But let's even suppose you're 100% right and the things I mentioned have absolutely nothing to do with the black crime rate. One thing that's pretty much irrefutable is that the vast majority of black America (and many white Americans, such as myself) believe they are a factor. This means that taking active steps towards solving them (which we already agreed should happen) will help build trust between groups, making it much easier to work together towards solutions.

by omonra 12y ago

haberman 12y ago

> I'm personally not convinced why the three points you raised are affecting blacks more than anybody else. Here's the thing: even if I never convince you of that, all you have to be convinced of is these things are a problem and should be fixed. Hopefully you believe that obvious conflicts of interest should not exist? Hopefully you believe that cops should not shoot unarmed people in the back while they are running away, and then plant evidence on them? Great. Because that's all it takes to believe that these are problems worth fixing. If you instead drag your feet and say that it's all black people's fault and they should fix it, you're doing exactly what you accuse them of doing.

omonra 12y ago
Hold on a sec. There are 2 separate issues we have: 1. I completely agree that the issues you raised ARE a problem and should be fixed. 100% with you. 2. At the same time I don't think they are the culprit that's responsible for large black crime rate (with attendant thousands dead and 1m+ in prison).
- haberman 12y ago
  > I completely agree that the issues you raised ARE a problem and should be fixed. 100% with you. Great! Common ground. > At the same time I don't think they are the culprit that's responsible for large black crime rate (with attendant thousands dead and 1m+ in prison). As I mentioned in my first message, I don't think there is a single "the culprit," I think it is a large and complicated problem with many interrelated causes. But let's even suppose you're 100% right and the things I mentioned have absolutely nothing to do with the black crime rate. One thing that's pretty much irrefutable is that the vast majority of black America (and many white Americans, such as myself) believe they are a factor. This means that taking active steps towards solving them (which we already agreed should happen) will help build trust between groups, making it much easier to work together towards solutions.