5 ms·

It drives me crazy how many people see a problem like this and are determined to conclude that that problem has only one cause. So one side decides that the (o

It drives me crazy how many people see a problem like this and are determined to conclude that that problem has only one cause. So one side decides that the (only) cause is that black people wantonly decide to choose a life of crime when they could just as easily have been upstanding members of society. Ergo, it is all black peoples' fault. And the other side decides that the (only) cause is that the criminal justice system incarcerates black people disproportionately, exclusively out of racism and bias. Ergo, it is all white peoples' fault. Why is it so hard to acknowledge that both of these are extreme positions? Both groups of people need to look inward, challenge themselves to fix what is broken, and work together to improve the situation.

a8da6b0c91d 12y ago
On the one hand you can argue there are "systemic" forces which are apparently unquantifiable driving blacks to elevated rates of criminality even after controlling for socio-economic factors. Presumably large, racially discriminatory social programs and cultural programming such as have been tried for the last 40 years are called for to remedy the problem. On the other hand you can take at face value the reams of data spanning over 80 years showing that across all categories of crime blacks have well over double the white rate. And this pattern holds up internationally, not just in America. We can just accept it as a fact of life and deal with it in a sane way that doesn't waste too much money or wrongly penalize innocent individuals.
- haberman 12y ago
  > Presumably large, racially discriminatory social programs and cultural programming such as have been tried for the last 40 years are called for to remedy the problem. There are plenty of obvious things that need fixing, even if you don't believe at all in affirmative action-like programs: 1. Clear conflicts of interest in the criminal justice system, like regular prosecutors being responsible for bringing charges against police, with whom they have close professional and often personal relationships. 2. The unjustifiable war on drugs, which disproportionately affects black communities. 3. Bad behavior by police officers, which likewise disproportionately affects black communities. This is pretty hard to measure because the offenders are the same people who are counting the stats. But we frequently get to see it in shocking display, like when a police officer is caught on video shooting a man who is running away and then planting evidence on him.
  - a8da6b0c91d 12y ago
    > The unjustifiable war on drugs, which disproportionately affects black communities. See, this gets to the heart of the matter. I personally think the war on drugs is very stupid, but the data indicates that it does not disproportionately affect blacks. Blacks use drugs at much higher rates than whites and blacks distribute drugs at even higher rates than whites. The prosecutions for narcotics crimes are by all indications commensurate with rates of criminal offense. It may be dumb law, but it's not racist. Cops and prosecutors are simply doing their jobs. If you think there's a racist conspiracy I dare you to prove it.
    - haberman 12y ago
      > It may be dumb law, but it's not racist. I didn't say it was racist. I said it disproportionately affects blacks. Even if it were true that blacks use drugs at higher rates than whites (and this is disputed: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/17/racial-disparity-drug-use_n_3941346.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/17/racial-disparity-dr...), reversing an unjustifiable war that affects blacks the most would be a step towards fixing the problem. > If you think there's a racist conspiracy I dare you to prove it. I don't think there's a conspiracy. Few people believe that cops get together and make evil plans about how they can treat black people unjustly. Here's a bigger point though: I mentioned three things that are clearly broken today, and which fixing would work towards repairing some of the problems we are experiencing today. And instead of finding common ground there, you focused on rebutting an accusation of "conspiracy" -- an accusation I didn't even make. That, right there, is why we collectively spin our wheels and never really get anywhere.
    - anigbrowl 12y ago
      Blacks use drugs at much higher rates than whites and blacks distribute drugs at even higher rates than whites. Most studies suggest the exact opposite to be true. http://healthland.time.com/2011/11/07/study-whites-more-likely-to-abuse-drugs-than-blacks/ http://healthland.time.com/2011/11/07/study-whites-more-like... http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2014/09/30/white-people-are-more-likely-to-deal-drugs-but-black-people-are-more-likely-to-get-arrested-for-it/ http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2014/09/30/w...

a8da6b0c91d 12y ago

On the one hand you can argue there are "systemic" forces which are apparently unquantifiable driving blacks to elevated rates of criminality even after controlling for socio-economic factors. Presumably large, racially discriminatory social programs and cultural programming such as have been tried for the last 40 years are called for to remedy the problem. On the other hand you can take at face value the reams of data spanning over 80 years showing that across all categories of crime blacks have well over double the white rate. And this pattern holds up internationally, not just in America. We can just accept it as a fact of life and deal with it in a sane way that doesn't waste too much money or wrongly penalize innocent individuals.

haberman 12y ago
> Presumably large, racially discriminatory social programs and cultural programming such as have been tried for the last 40 years are called for to remedy the problem. There are plenty of obvious things that need fixing, even if you don't believe at all in affirmative action-like programs: 1. Clear conflicts of interest in the criminal justice system, like regular prosecutors being responsible for bringing charges against police, with whom they have close professional and often personal relationships. 2. The unjustifiable war on drugs, which disproportionately affects black communities. 3. Bad behavior by police officers, which likewise disproportionately affects black communities. This is pretty hard to measure because the offenders are the same people who are counting the stats. But we frequently get to see it in shocking display, like when a police officer is caught on video shooting a man who is running away and then planting evidence on him.
- a8da6b0c91d 12y ago
  > The unjustifiable war on drugs, which disproportionately affects black communities. See, this gets to the heart of the matter. I personally think the war on drugs is very stupid, but the data indicates that it does not disproportionately affect blacks. Blacks use drugs at much higher rates than whites and blacks distribute drugs at even higher rates than whites. The prosecutions for narcotics crimes are by all indications commensurate with rates of criminal offense. It may be dumb law, but it's not racist. Cops and prosecutors are simply doing their jobs. If you think there's a racist conspiracy I dare you to prove it.
  - haberman 12y ago
    > It may be dumb law, but it's not racist. I didn't say it was racist. I said it disproportionately affects blacks. Even if it were true that blacks use drugs at higher rates than whites (and this is disputed: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/17/racial-disparity-drug-use_n_3941346.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/17/racial-disparity-dr...), reversing an unjustifiable war that affects blacks the most would be a step towards fixing the problem. > If you think there's a racist conspiracy I dare you to prove it. I don't think there's a conspiracy. Few people believe that cops get together and make evil plans about how they can treat black people unjustly. Here's a bigger point though: I mentioned three things that are clearly broken today, and which fixing would work towards repairing some of the problems we are experiencing today. And instead of finding common ground there, you focused on rebutting an accusation of "conspiracy" -- an accusation I didn't even make. That, right there, is why we collectively spin our wheels and never really get anywhere.
  - anigbrowl 12y ago
    Blacks use drugs at much higher rates than whites and blacks distribute drugs at even higher rates than whites. Most studies suggest the exact opposite to be true. http://healthland.time.com/2011/11/07/study-whites-more-likely-to-abuse-drugs-than-blacks/ http://healthland.time.com/2011/11/07/study-whites-more-like... http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2014/09/30/white-people-are-more-likely-to-deal-drugs-but-black-people-are-more-likely-to-get-arrested-for-it/ http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2014/09/30/w...