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Moynihan in 1965, writing at the Labor Dept.: "The steady expansion of welfare programs can be taken as a measure of the steady disintegration of the Negro fami

Moynihan in 1965, writing at the Labor Dept.: "The steady expansion of welfare programs can be taken as a measure of the steady disintegration of the Negro family structure over the past generation in the United States." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Negro_Family:_The_Case_For_National_Action http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Negro_Family:_The_Case_For_... The welfare state and the drug war have had devastating effects on the U.S. black population. To take just one statistic, when Moynihan published his report, the black out-of-wedlock birth rate was 25%. Now, it's over 70% (and almost 30% among the white population). Complete tragedy.

dothething 11y ago
Correlation vs causation issues? Welfare is available to everyone, why would you say this is only affecting a certain race? Seems more appropriate to look at other trends rather than a 1965 article.
_dark_matter_ 11y ago
The other reply is completely correct. You are misinterpreting what Moynihan meant when he wrote: >"The steady expansion of welfare programs can be taken as a measure of the steady disintegration of the Negro family structure over the past generation in the United States." What he meant was that, as we see a crumbling of black family structure, they will require greater help, which came through welfare. Here is the heart and soul of his argument: "at the heart of the deterioration of the fabric of Negro society is the deterioration of the Negro family" I don't think he would have argued that reducing welfare would help these people, and to imply that is disingenuous at best.
- stickfigure 11y ago
  I didn't read that implication in the GP's statement.
- hackuser 11y ago
  The country's response to a crisis of the black American family was to imprison a large number of black males, adding another crisis to the situation. Considering that and other forms of discrimination, it's amazing that the black middle-class has expanded so much.
  - Snesker 11y ago
    Imprisoning someone isn't a response to anything but crime. Imprisonment for a crime is not discrimination. You're insane.
    - hackuser 11y ago
      > Imprisonment for a crime is not discrimination. I wish it was so. Consider however: * Many laws are and have been discriminatory. For example, laws banning minority activites such as homosexual sex or interracial marriage; laws imprisoning Japanese in WWII or banning forms of political speech in many eras; laws banning peaceful protest during political conventions; laws that penalize poor people's vices (crack, dope) much more harshly than rich people's vices (cocaine, prescription drugs). * Police enforcement is sometimes discriminatory: Much research supports that some minorities are harassed by law enforcement (e.g., 'driving while black', or stop-and-frisk in major cities). What might be overlooked from a middle-class white can result in jail time for a poor black. * Prosecutor enforcement is sometimes discriminatory: Research supports that some minorties are charged with harsher crimes than other citizens, for the same behavior. The powerful and connected get a pass. * Judicial enforcement is sometimes discriminatory: Research supports that convictions and sentencing are harsher for minorities. Also consider the long history of blacks facing all-white juries. Also, the poor have much less access to judicial resources, such as a good lawyer. There is a long history of blacks, for example, being defenseless against all-white police forces, governments and judicial systems. You can see it today; consider Eric Garner and other recent cases, where people even can be killed with no reprocussions.
    - dzdt 11y ago
      Everyone is a criminal. (Think: have YOU ever done anything illegal? Tried pot? Downloaded music? Thrown eggs? Driven buzzed?) Some criminals are disproportionately targeted and disproportionately punished. Lucky for you you got a pass.
maceo 11y ago
Moynihan was snubbed for writing the report and liberals and conservatives alike have since been very afraid to comment on the state of black families in the US. The black family unit in the US has been under attack for over 500 years. During slavery, blacks were prohibited from marrying and relationships between father, mother, and children were torn apart at the slaveowners whim. Slavery was still in existence 150 years ago, and it existed on US soil for 350 years prior. Reconstruction offered brief solace, but then came Jim Crow, white terrorist organizations like the KKK, a so-called social welfare system that overzealously institutionalized and split apart poor families, the war on drugs/crime, Clinton era cuts to welfare that disproportionally affected working single mothers and poor children of color, etc.
- selimthegrim 11y ago
  If you ever needed a reminder on institutionalized Jim Crow let these fit the bill for a good long while: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Day_Freedom_Died:_The_Colfax_Massacre,_the_Supreme_Court,_and_the_Betrayal_of_Reconstruction http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Day_Freedom_Died:_The_Colfa... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosewood_massacre http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosewood_massacre http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulsa_race_riot http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulsa_race_riot https://books.google.com/books?id=ISoAAQAAQBAJ&lpg=PT62&ots=xQ3DvKi9fv&dq=1927%20flood%20bye%20bye%20blackbird&pg=PT62#v=onepage&q=1927%20flood%20bye%20bye%20blackbird&f=false https://books.google.com/books?id=ISoAAQAAQBAJ&lpg=PT62&ots=...

dothething 11y ago

Correlation vs causation issues? Welfare is available to everyone, why would you say this is only affecting a certain race? Seems more appropriate to look at other trends rather than a 1965 article.

_dark_matter_ 11y ago

The other reply is completely correct. You are misinterpreting what Moynihan meant when he wrote: >"The steady expansion of welfare programs can be taken as a measure of the steady disintegration of the Negro family structure over the past generation in the United States." What he meant was that, as we see a crumbling of black family structure, they will require greater help, which came through welfare. Here is the heart and soul of his argument: "at the heart of the deterioration of the fabric of Negro society is the deterioration of the Negro family" I don't think he would have argued that reducing welfare would help these people, and to imply that is disingenuous at best.

stickfigure 11y ago
I didn't read that implication in the GP's statement.
hackuser 11y ago
The country's response to a crisis of the black American family was to imprison a large number of black males, adding another crisis to the situation. Considering that and other forms of discrimination, it's amazing that the black middle-class has expanded so much.
- Snesker 11y ago
  Imprisoning someone isn't a response to anything but crime. Imprisonment for a crime is not discrimination. You're insane.
  - hackuser 11y ago
    > Imprisonment for a crime is not discrimination. I wish it was so. Consider however: * Many laws are and have been discriminatory. For example, laws banning minority activites such as homosexual sex or interracial marriage; laws imprisoning Japanese in WWII or banning forms of political speech in many eras; laws banning peaceful protest during political conventions; laws that penalize poor people's vices (crack, dope) much more harshly than rich people's vices (cocaine, prescription drugs). * Police enforcement is sometimes discriminatory: Much research supports that some minorities are harassed by law enforcement (e.g., 'driving while black', or stop-and-frisk in major cities). What might be overlooked from a middle-class white can result in jail time for a poor black. * Prosecutor enforcement is sometimes discriminatory: Research supports that some minorties are charged with harsher crimes than other citizens, for the same behavior. The powerful and connected get a pass. * Judicial enforcement is sometimes discriminatory: Research supports that convictions and sentencing are harsher for minorities. Also consider the long history of blacks facing all-white juries. Also, the poor have much less access to judicial resources, such as a good lawyer. There is a long history of blacks, for example, being defenseless against all-white police forces, governments and judicial systems. You can see it today; consider Eric Garner and other recent cases, where people even can be killed with no reprocussions.
  - dzdt 11y ago
    Everyone is a criminal. (Think: have YOU ever done anything illegal? Tried pot? Downloaded music? Thrown eggs? Driven buzzed?) Some criminals are disproportionately targeted and disproportionately punished. Lucky for you you got a pass.

maceo 11y ago

Moynihan was snubbed for writing the report and liberals and conservatives alike have since been very afraid to comment on the state of black families in the US. The black family unit in the US has been under attack for over 500 years. During slavery, blacks were prohibited from marrying and relationships between father, mother, and children were torn apart at the slaveowners whim. Slavery was still in existence 150 years ago, and it existed on US soil for 350 years prior. Reconstruction offered brief solace, but then came Jim Crow, white terrorist organizations like the KKK, a so-called social welfare system that overzealously institutionalized and split apart poor families, the war on drugs/crime, Clinton era cuts to welfare that disproportionally affected working single mothers and poor children of color, etc.

selimthegrim 11y ago
If you ever needed a reminder on institutionalized Jim Crow let these fit the bill for a good long while: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Day_Freedom_Died:_The_Colfax_Massacre,_the_Supreme_Court,_and_the_Betrayal_of_Reconstruction http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Day_Freedom_Died:_The_Colfa... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosewood_massacre http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosewood_massacre http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulsa_race_riot http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulsa_race_riot https://books.google.com/books?id=ISoAAQAAQBAJ&lpg=PT62&ots=xQ3DvKi9fv&dq=1927%20flood%20bye%20bye%20blackbird&pg=PT62#v=onepage&q=1927%20flood%20bye%20bye%20blackbird&f=false https://books.google.com/books?id=ISoAAQAAQBAJ&lpg=PT62&ots=...