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I’m in Germany where you can’t give up your “Urheberrecht” (literal: Creator’s right, equivalent to copyright) so technically NASA’s (or other US government age

I’m in Germany where you can’t give up your “Urheberrecht” (literal: Creator’s right, equivalent to copyright) so technically NASA’s (or other US government agencies) photos are copyrighted here—even if they're public domain in the US. Anybody ever looked into that?

vinceguidry 12y ago
If the person you pay to worry about that kind of stuff is worried about the risk of NASA suing you, you should probably get a better worrier. Or is there something here I'm missing?
- germanier 12y ago
  It's not the risk of NASA suing you but the risk of the original creator suing you. As copyright can't be transferred under German law, it was never transferred to NASA in the first place from Germany's point of view. Unlikely, but might happen.
  - waterlesscloud 12y ago
    So if I write an article on assignment for a German newspaper, I own the copyright still? Huh.
    - germanier 12y ago
      Yes, you'll own the copyright but usually sign away almost all rights that go along with that. There is only one small thing that they can't do: Change your article substantially and still put your name on.
  - snowwrestler 12y ago
    That seems really unlikely to me unless the photographer in question was a German citizen, or the photo was taken in Germany. Otherwise they would not have standing in Germany. It would come down to international copyright agreements like ACTA and I don't think those allow each nation to spread their own copyright laws over the entire globe. But really vinceguidry is right here: the risk calculation for copyright is not just what the law says, but what is the practical likelihood of being sued under the law. This is true across the board; it's how a million blogs get away with using copyrighted photos on their blog posts.
    - germanier 12y ago
      No, the relevant law is the one where a work is published. For this you don't need to spread law around the globe. There are known cases where a work was already in public domain in the country of creation but not in Germany and the heirs successfully sued in German court. Yes, in this case the chance of getting sued is pretty small, but it's there. See for example the US government's own statement: > Copyright laws differ internationally. While a U.S. government work is not protectable under U.S. copyright laws, the work may be protected under the copyright laws of other jurisdictions when used in these jurisdictions. The U.S. government may assert copyright outside of the United States for U.S. government works. http://www.usa.gov/copyright.shtml#Exceptions http://www.usa.gov/copyright.shtml#Exceptions Many German blogs stopped using copyrighted photos (at least much less use such photos than blogs in other countries do) because you are actually at risk of being sued. Some people lost quite a lot of money for doing this.
      - snowwrestler 12y ago
        If you know of a case where a U.S. federal government employee successfully sued for their copyright in Germany on a photo they made in the course of their official duties with the U.S. government, I'd appreciate if you could point me in the right direction. I'm familiar with the idea that copyright expirations can take longer in Germany vs. the U.S., and that the U.S. government reserves the right to assert copyright internationally. But I've never heard of a case like I mention above. Thanks.
        germanier 12y ago
        The US governments specifically preservers the rights for their work abroad (see my other comments for citations). I know no case where they actually enforced that and therefore personally I'd take the risk of using US government work. However, I know that if they started suing I'd loose.
        snowwrestler 12y ago
        Ok, I agree with that, but what you said above is, "It's not the risk of NASA suing you but the risk of the original creator suing you." I've never heard of such a case.
- Udo_Schmitz 12y ago
  I’m not sure I understand your comment. I’m a graphic designer and would love to incorporate NASA* pics in my work, but—except for personal projects—can’t, because I would put my clients at risk. Was hoping someone knew something I don’t or that the US government had addressed the issue in the past. Edit to add:*Or other agencies. Few months ago I went to an exhibition in Berlin of Walker Evans’ photographs. Some of those he did for the Farm Security Administration in the 1940s. And I was thinking about the copyright situation. This thread was a welcome chance to pick hacker news’ minds …
  - vinceguidry 12y ago
    What risk would you be putting your clients in? At most it's worth a 15 second discussion. "Hey, I'd like to use these space images, technically they're owned by NASA but NASA doesn't charge anyone or sue over copyright. Do you want me to find someone to sell you some images or are these fine?" Then everyone's on the same page.
TeMPOraL 12y ago
Does Germany have distinction between creator's "personal rights" and "property rights"? In Poland you can't give up your "creator's personal rights", i.e. the right to have a work associated with your name, but you can pass your "property rights" - the rights to profit from the work - to someone else.
- Udo_Schmitz 12y ago
  The creator can give a perpetual license but never gives up creators rights. Germany actually has public domain (Gemeinfreiheit) but according to general professional view this can only apply after copyright has expired.
Amorymeltzer 12y ago
This is always a valid concern, and I wish more people brought it up. It's why things like CC0, the Unlicense, and (my personal favorite) the WTPL exist. Truth be told, though, I'm not 100% sure it's relevant here in term of US Gov't creations. Technically, these items were never copyrighted, so there aren't any rights to retain. But that's moot, since US law only extends to the US (tell that to the MPAA). Government creations ARE copyrighted works in many countries, which leads to the interesting notion that the US gov't may hold rights in foreign countries but not the US. IANAL.
- germanier 12y ago
  Technically (under German law) any creation is automatically copyrighted the moment it's created. Whether US law says it wasn't is not relevant for a German court. The chance of the creator suing is small but it's not zero. CC0 and the like carefully work around these laws (which exist in many countries beside Germany) by giving you a license to do anything with the work (while retaining copyright – but that's only a technical distinction). Of course one might argue that a US government worker implicitly gave up their rights in a similar way, but as far as I'm aware nobody looked into that yet.
mlinksva 12y ago
Yes people have looked into US government agency copyright outside of the US see links in first paragraph of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Public_domain#U.S._government_works https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Public_domain#U.S._g... though don't know if anyone has specifically looked into US government works and German law.
- Udo_Schmitz 12y ago
  That entry has a link to http://www.usa.gov/copyright.shtml#Exceptions http://www.usa.gov/copyright.shtml#Exceptions “The U.S. government may assert copyright outside of the United States for U.S. government works.” Too bad :/

vinceguidry 12y ago

If the person you pay to worry about that kind of stuff is worried about the risk of NASA suing you, you should probably get a better worrier. Or is there something here I'm missing?

germanier 12y ago
It's not the risk of NASA suing you but the risk of the original creator suing you. As copyright can't be transferred under German law, it was never transferred to NASA in the first place from Germany's point of view. Unlikely, but might happen.
- waterlesscloud 12y ago
  So if I write an article on assignment for a German newspaper, I own the copyright still? Huh.
  - germanier 12y ago
    Yes, you'll own the copyright but usually sign away almost all rights that go along with that. There is only one small thing that they can't do: Change your article substantially and still put your name on.
- snowwrestler 12y ago
  That seems really unlikely to me unless the photographer in question was a German citizen, or the photo was taken in Germany. Otherwise they would not have standing in Germany. It would come down to international copyright agreements like ACTA and I don't think those allow each nation to spread their own copyright laws over the entire globe. But really vinceguidry is right here: the risk calculation for copyright is not just what the law says, but what is the practical likelihood of being sued under the law. This is true across the board; it's how a million blogs get away with using copyrighted photos on their blog posts.
  - germanier 12y ago
    No, the relevant law is the one where a work is published. For this you don't need to spread law around the globe. There are known cases where a work was already in public domain in the country of creation but not in Germany and the heirs successfully sued in German court. Yes, in this case the chance of getting sued is pretty small, but it's there. See for example the US government's own statement: > Copyright laws differ internationally. While a U.S. government work is not protectable under U.S. copyright laws, the work may be protected under the copyright laws of other jurisdictions when used in these jurisdictions. The U.S. government may assert copyright outside of the United States for U.S. government works. http://www.usa.gov/copyright.shtml#Exceptions http://www.usa.gov/copyright.shtml#Exceptions Many German blogs stopped using copyrighted photos (at least much less use such photos than blogs in other countries do) because you are actually at risk of being sued. Some people lost quite a lot of money for doing this.
    - snowwrestler 12y ago
      If you know of a case where a U.S. federal government employee successfully sued for their copyright in Germany on a photo they made in the course of their official duties with the U.S. government, I'd appreciate if you could point me in the right direction. I'm familiar with the idea that copyright expirations can take longer in Germany vs. the U.S., and that the U.S. government reserves the right to assert copyright internationally. But I've never heard of a case like I mention above. Thanks.
      - germanier 12y ago
        The US governments specifically preservers the rights for their work abroad (see my other comments for citations). I know no case where they actually enforced that and therefore personally I'd take the risk of using US government work. However, I know that if they started suing I'd loose.
        snowwrestler 12y ago
        Ok, I agree with that, but what you said above is, "It's not the risk of NASA suing you but the risk of the original creator suing you." I've never heard of such a case.
Udo_Schmitz 12y ago
I’m not sure I understand your comment. I’m a graphic designer and would love to incorporate NASA* pics in my work, but—except for personal projects—can’t, because I would put my clients at risk. Was hoping someone knew something I don’t or that the US government had addressed the issue in the past. Edit to add:*Or other agencies. Few months ago I went to an exhibition in Berlin of Walker Evans’ photographs. Some of those he did for the Farm Security Administration in the 1940s. And I was thinking about the copyright situation. This thread was a welcome chance to pick hacker news’ minds …
- vinceguidry 12y ago
  What risk would you be putting your clients in? At most it's worth a 15 second discussion. "Hey, I'd like to use these space images, technically they're owned by NASA but NASA doesn't charge anyone or sue over copyright. Do you want me to find someone to sell you some images or are these fine?" Then everyone's on the same page.

TeMPOraL 12y ago

Does Germany have distinction between creator's "personal rights" and "property rights"? In Poland you can't give up your "creator's personal rights", i.e. the right to have a work associated with your name, but you can pass your "property rights" - the rights to profit from the work - to someone else.

Udo_Schmitz 12y ago
The creator can give a perpetual license but never gives up creators rights. Germany actually has public domain (Gemeinfreiheit) but according to general professional view this can only apply after copyright has expired.

Amorymeltzer 12y ago

This is always a valid concern, and I wish more people brought it up. It's why things like CC0, the Unlicense, and (my personal favorite) the WTPL exist. Truth be told, though, I'm not 100% sure it's relevant here in term of US Gov't creations. Technically, these items were never copyrighted, so there aren't any rights to retain. But that's moot, since US law only extends to the US (tell that to the MPAA). Government creations ARE copyrighted works in many countries, which leads to the interesting notion that the US gov't may hold rights in foreign countries but not the US. IANAL.

germanier 12y ago
Technically (under German law) any creation is automatically copyrighted the moment it's created. Whether US law says it wasn't is not relevant for a German court. The chance of the creator suing is small but it's not zero. CC0 and the like carefully work around these laws (which exist in many countries beside Germany) by giving you a license to do anything with the work (while retaining copyright – but that's only a technical distinction). Of course one might argue that a US government worker implicitly gave up their rights in a similar way, but as far as I'm aware nobody looked into that yet.

mlinksva 12y ago

Yes people have looked into US government agency copyright outside of the US see links in first paragraph of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Public_domain#U.S._government_works https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Public_domain#U.S._g... though don't know if anyone has specifically looked into US government works and German law.

Udo_Schmitz 12y ago
That entry has a link to http://www.usa.gov/copyright.shtml#Exceptions http://www.usa.gov/copyright.shtml#Exceptions “The U.S. government may assert copyright outside of the United States for U.S. government works.” Too bad :/