8 ms·

WhatsApp isn't about putting ads into the app but for better data collection. That is why Facebook bought them. Facebook sells ads and targeting data and one of

by Psion7 11y ago

WhatsApp isn't about putting ads into the app but for better data collection. That is why Facebook bought them. Facebook sells ads and targeting data and one of the best ways to analyse a persons life to better target them for ads is from their personal, non-public communication. You will talk about many more things in private conversation with friends and family than you will publicly on your Facebook profile. A simple example is you are talking to a few friends on WhatsApp about booking a holiday somewhere, you talk about locations, dates, prices, etc. all in private, now Facebook can take all that data and using their massive Facebook tracking system start advertising offers for hotels in the places you are looking at going, shops you often mention that sell clothes for your holiday, travel insurance, etc, etc. You don't need to stick ads IN the app to monetise it. In fact keeping it clean and ad free is the best thing to do as it keeps your users happy and using your app more which in turn leads to more and more data collection. I think the $1 a year thing is a load of crap that is used to distract people away from the whole "if it is free you are the product" idea. If WhatsApp looks like it is not free because you have to pay $1 a year then psychologically you "trust" it more because it is something you pay for rather than something that is analysing every thing you ever say to build a better advertising profile. Also has anyone actually ever paid that $1? I don't know anyone who has, they always get some "promotion" that gives them another year free for being a loyal WhatsApp user.

mike-cardwell 11y ago
Except, as far as I know, Facebook/WhatsApp shouldn't be able to read the messages people send each other over the WhatsApp network because of end-to-end encryption: https://whispersystems.org/blog/whatsapp/ https://whispersystems.org/blog/whatsapp/
- justinpaulson 11y ago
  True, but this doesn't stop them from cataloguing who I'm talking to. That data can be very valuable with facebook's model.
- Psion7 11y ago
  They say the network communication is encrypted between end points but they don't say analysing is not being done prior to encryption on your end. What I mean is it is possible for the communication over the network to be encrypted between Bob and Alice but everything Bob writes to Alice could easily be used by WhatsApp/Facebook prior to being sent. They could even go as far as to encrypt it and just transmit your side of the conversation to their servers for later analysis.
  - Justsignedup 11y ago
    Whatsapp is encrypted in transit. It is still stored on their servers. So they can read your messages. Edit: Link -- https://www.eff.org/secure-messaging-scorecard https://www.eff.org/secure-messaging-scorecard
    - scotu 11y ago
      If it was stored on their server I would assume I would be able to get my old messages when I change phone but it didn't happen last time I did, plus they could have implemented web also for iOS without relying on your phone to show messages in the browser (through more permissive android functionality), no?
      - cheepin 11y ago
        I believe messages pass through the servers, but once a message makes it to your device, its online copy gets deleted.
      - Psion7 11y ago
        Well they don't need to store your whole message, once they have processed it and updated their profile database with whatever is of value to them they will most likely delete it. They should all happen within minutes if not seconds of you sending the message.
    - motoboi 11y ago
      They claim end-to-end encryption, which means they don't store it unencrypted. From a wired article about it: "Textsecure has actually already been quietly encrypting Whatsapp messages between Android devices for a week. The new encryption scheme means Whatsapp messages will now travel all the way to the recipients? device before being decrypted, rather than merely being encrypted between the user?s device and Whatsapp?s server."
- p4bl0 11y ago
  See http://blog.nadim.computer/post/114970275623/on-the-secure-messaging-community http://blog.nadim.computer/post/114970275623/on-the-secure-m... and http://blog.nadim.computer/post/115940264683/how-whatsapp-needs-to-improve-its-encryption http://blog.nadim.computer/post/115940264683/how-whatsapp-ne... about the end-to-end encryption in WhatsApp.
SPascareli 11y ago
My WhatsApp didn't even bothered asking me for the $1 when the first year ended, I still use it just fine.
amirmc 11y ago
> "You don't need to stick ads IN the app to monetise it." Exactly. I'm always surprised when people think it's the ads themselves that matter. It's the behavioural data and profiling that's valuable. With that information, you can place targeted ads elsewhere. I'm sure most users still don't realise that WhatsApp is an FB product now.
joeyspn 11y ago
That could explain why I've been getting oddly accurate (highly targeted) ads on FB related to the niche of a new app I'm developing. I haven't liked similar stuff on FB and I was wondering how in the world FB knows that info (I have talked about it extensively via whatsapp). So there are only 2 options: 1- They somewhat are able to read my browser history even when I have ABP with "Fanboy's Social Blocking List" and a selective JS blocker installed. 2- They read my whatsapp messages.
- perseusprime 11y ago
  Why don't we test this hypothesis and start talking about something in whatsapp and see if we get ads on facebook?
- wmt 11y ago
  How would they link your whatsapp account to your facebook account? Whatsapp only knows my phone number and what phone numbers I contact, and my facebook account doesn't know my whatsapp phone number.
  - joeyspn 11y ago
    Because Facebook knows my mobile number... I provided it long ago (IIRC for setting up some ad campaigns or was required as anti-spam measure)
  - Psion7 11y ago
    If you have WhatsApp and Facebook or Facebook Messenger installed on your phone then they are aware of each other and can exchange information freely.
- _lce0 11y ago
  first of all, I dont use facebook, I had the account active, but force myself to stay out of it .. Lately I had added a couple new contacts to my phone's agenda, and now facebook shows me these in the "people you may know" emails it's clear to me that they had already started the data capture
- 11y ago
andrelaszlo 11y ago
"We may share non-personally-identifiable information [...] with interested third-parties to assist them in understanding the usage patterns for [...] advertisements" https://www.whatsapp.com/legal/ https://www.whatsapp.com/legal/

by Psion7 11y ago

mike-cardwell 11y ago

Except, as far as I know, Facebook/WhatsApp shouldn't be able to read the messages people send each other over the WhatsApp network because of end-to-end encryption: https://whispersystems.org/blog/whatsapp/ https://whispersystems.org/blog/whatsapp/

justinpaulson 11y ago
True, but this doesn't stop them from cataloguing who I'm talking to. That data can be very valuable with facebook's model.
Psion7 11y ago
They say the network communication is encrypted between end points but they don't say analysing is not being done prior to encryption on your end. What I mean is it is possible for the communication over the network to be encrypted between Bob and Alice but everything Bob writes to Alice could easily be used by WhatsApp/Facebook prior to being sent. They could even go as far as to encrypt it and just transmit your side of the conversation to their servers for later analysis.
- Justsignedup 11y ago
  Whatsapp is encrypted in transit. It is still stored on their servers. So they can read your messages. Edit: Link -- https://www.eff.org/secure-messaging-scorecard https://www.eff.org/secure-messaging-scorecard
  - scotu 11y ago
    If it was stored on their server I would assume I would be able to get my old messages when I change phone but it didn't happen last time I did, plus they could have implemented web also for iOS without relying on your phone to show messages in the browser (through more permissive android functionality), no?
    - cheepin 11y ago
      I believe messages pass through the servers, but once a message makes it to your device, its online copy gets deleted.
    - Psion7 11y ago
      Well they don't need to store your whole message, once they have processed it and updated their profile database with whatever is of value to them they will most likely delete it. They should all happen within minutes if not seconds of you sending the message.
  - motoboi 11y ago
    They claim end-to-end encryption, which means they don't store it unencrypted. From a wired article about it: "Textsecure has actually already been quietly encrypting Whatsapp messages between Android devices for a week. The new encryption scheme means Whatsapp messages will now travel all the way to the recipients? device before being decrypted, rather than merely being encrypted between the user?s device and Whatsapp?s server."
p4bl0 11y ago
See http://blog.nadim.computer/post/114970275623/on-the-secure-messaging-community http://blog.nadim.computer/post/114970275623/on-the-secure-m... and http://blog.nadim.computer/post/115940264683/how-whatsapp-needs-to-improve-its-encryption http://blog.nadim.computer/post/115940264683/how-whatsapp-ne... about the end-to-end encryption in WhatsApp.

SPascareli 11y ago

My WhatsApp didn't even bothered asking me for the $1 when the first year ended, I still use it just fine.

amirmc 11y ago

> "You don't need to stick ads IN the app to monetise it." Exactly. I'm always surprised when people think it's the ads themselves that matter. It's the behavioural data and profiling that's valuable. With that information, you can place targeted ads elsewhere. I'm sure most users still don't realise that WhatsApp is an FB product now.

joeyspn 11y ago

That could explain why I've been getting oddly accurate (highly targeted) ads on FB related to the niche of a new app I'm developing. I haven't liked similar stuff on FB and I was wondering how in the world FB knows that info (I have talked about it extensively via whatsapp). So there are only 2 options: 1- They somewhat are able to read my browser history even when I have ABP with "Fanboy's Social Blocking List" and a selective JS blocker installed. 2- They read my whatsapp messages.

perseusprime 11y ago
Why don't we test this hypothesis and start talking about something in whatsapp and see if we get ads on facebook?
wmt 11y ago
How would they link your whatsapp account to your facebook account? Whatsapp only knows my phone number and what phone numbers I contact, and my facebook account doesn't know my whatsapp phone number.
- joeyspn 11y ago
  Because Facebook knows my mobile number... I provided it long ago (IIRC for setting up some ad campaigns or was required as anti-spam measure)
- Psion7 11y ago
  If you have WhatsApp and Facebook or Facebook Messenger installed on your phone then they are aware of each other and can exchange information freely.
_lce0 11y ago
first of all, I dont use facebook, I had the account active, but force myself to stay out of it .. Lately I had added a couple new contacts to my phone's agenda, and now facebook shows me these in the "people you may know" emails it's clear to me that they had already started the data capture
11y ago

andrelaszlo 11y ago

"We may share non-personally-identifiable information [...] with interested third-parties to assist them in understanding the usage patterns for [...] advertisements" https://www.whatsapp.com/legal/ https://www.whatsapp.com/legal/