5 ms·

Wow CSS is unfriendly, you really realise how poor it is once you learn other layout systems (android's XML and iOS auto layout, etc). Wish there was another s

by chubs 12y ago

Wow CSS is unfriendly, you really realise how poor it is once you learn other layout systems (android's XML and iOS auto layout, etc). Wish there was another standard that could co-exist side by side on the web, something simple enough to be implemented reliably by the browser vendors.

pcwalton 12y ago
> Wish there was another standard that could co-exist side by side on the web, something simple enough to be implemented reliably by the browser vendors. That standard exists. It's called flexbox. It was designed to solve exactly this problem (among many others), and does. That said, as I never tire of mentioning, vertical centering was a part of the design of CSS 2.1. The technique is called "absolute centering". See CSS 2.1 10.6.4 [1]: "If both 'margin-top' and 'margin-bottom' are 'auto', solve the equation under the extra constraint that the two margins get equal values." [1]: http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/visudet.html#abs-non-replaced-height http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/visudet.html#abs-non-replaced-hei...
- angersock 12y ago
  But then what happened to it? wtf? do...do they know...how many manhours could've been saved...?
  - pcwalton 12y ago
    Yeah, everyone did a really bad job of evangelizing absolute centering back in the day, leading to lots of angry Web developers and awful hacks like the inline-block/vertical-align trick. It should have been the first example given for "position: absolute"…
  - AustinG08 12y ago
    Nothing happened to it. It gets used by front-end developers every single day. I personally can't follow the CSS complaints. It is easier to learn than any other front-end dev language in one's toolkit.
jekrb 12y ago
I've heard that android's XML layout is terrible (from an android developer) and that iOS auto layout is borderline magic (from an iOS developer). Personally, I don't find css to be that bad at all, but I work in it at least a little everyday so it might just be stockholm syndrome.
- 21echoes 12y ago
  as someone who's done both (and web) -- Android's XML layout is easily the best of Android, iOS, and web, while iOS's AutoLayout is a complete mess that basically only works because there are still so few iOS screen sizes. Android coding in general is a pain compared to iOS, but they definitely got the declarative layout system right.
- gurkendoktor 12y ago
  iOS developer here. AutoLayout is definitely not borderline magic, and some people hate it. It is inefficient. It is awkward to set up in code, so many people write their own syntactic sugar around it. It crashes hard when it isn't 100% sure what to do with its constraints. Working with multi-line text is still a pain, so you often run into clipped text on iOS if you dare to increase the font size. etc.
  - jekrb 12y ago
    Hey thanks for the reply. I don't work on mobile apps at all, so I really wasn't aware. It's definitely interesting to see your point of view,
  - gurkendoktor 12y ago
    Anonymous downvoters, AutoLayout may work great for you, but it is definitely controversial among iOS developers (more so than e.g. ARC). Nothing wrong with pointing that out.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
WalterGR 12y ago
How do Android's XML and iOS's auto layout compare to Microsoft's WPF? I used the latter around 10 years ago and found it pretty nice.
- constant_change 12y ago
  I haven't used WPF in about that time myself, but Android's XML is a roughly similar experience. No idea about iOS's auto layout.
- MichaelGG 12y ago
  Exactly. I haven't done HTML layout since circa 2000. I tried WPF about 8-9 years ago and well, it was just simple to get layouts right. I'm sure there's some reasonable reason for it, I just don't understand why browsers couldn't do similar, or just rip off WPF.

by chubs 12y ago

pcwalton 12y ago

> Wish there was another standard that could co-exist side by side on the web, something simple enough to be implemented reliably by the browser vendors. That standard exists. It's called flexbox. It was designed to solve exactly this problem (among many others), and does. That said, as I never tire of mentioning, vertical centering was a part of the design of CSS 2.1. The technique is called "absolute centering". See CSS 2.1 10.6.4 [1]: "If both 'margin-top' and 'margin-bottom' are 'auto', solve the equation under the extra constraint that the two margins get equal values." [1]: http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/visudet.html#abs-non-replaced-height http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/visudet.html#abs-non-replaced-hei...

angersock 12y ago
But then what happened to it? wtf? do...do they know...how many manhours could've been saved...?
- pcwalton 12y ago
  Yeah, everyone did a really bad job of evangelizing absolute centering back in the day, leading to lots of angry Web developers and awful hacks like the inline-block/vertical-align trick. It should have been the first example given for "position: absolute"…
- AustinG08 12y ago
  Nothing happened to it. It gets used by front-end developers every single day. I personally can't follow the CSS complaints. It is easier to learn than any other front-end dev language in one's toolkit.

jekrb 12y ago

I've heard that android's XML layout is terrible (from an android developer) and that iOS auto layout is borderline magic (from an iOS developer). Personally, I don't find css to be that bad at all, but I work in it at least a little everyday so it might just be stockholm syndrome.

21echoes 12y ago
as someone who's done both (and web) -- Android's XML layout is easily the best of Android, iOS, and web, while iOS's AutoLayout is a complete mess that basically only works because there are still so few iOS screen sizes. Android coding in general is a pain compared to iOS, but they definitely got the declarative layout system right.
gurkendoktor 12y ago
iOS developer here. AutoLayout is definitely not borderline magic, and some people hate it. It is inefficient. It is awkward to set up in code, so many people write their own syntactic sugar around it. It crashes hard when it isn't 100% sure what to do with its constraints. Working with multi-line text is still a pain, so you often run into clipped text on iOS if you dare to increase the font size. etc.
- jekrb 12y ago
  Hey thanks for the reply. I don't work on mobile apps at all, so I really wasn't aware. It's definitely interesting to see your point of view,
- gurkendoktor 12y ago
  Anonymous downvoters, AutoLayout may work great for you, but it is definitely controversial among iOS developers (more so than e.g. ARC). Nothing wrong with pointing that out.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

WalterGR 12y ago

How do Android's XML and iOS's auto layout compare to Microsoft's WPF? I used the latter around 10 years ago and found it pretty nice.

constant_change 12y ago
I haven't used WPF in about that time myself, but Android's XML is a roughly similar experience. No idea about iOS's auto layout.
MichaelGG 12y ago
Exactly. I haven't done HTML layout since circa 2000. I tried WPF about 8-9 years ago and well, it was just simple to get layouts right. I'm sure there's some reasonable reason for it, I just don't understand why browsers couldn't do similar, or just rip off WPF.