3 ms·

Exercise helps a ton with depression too. And probably anxiety, though I don't have any direct experience. I think it's no exaggeration to say that richer cou

by chubot 12y ago

Exercise helps a ton with depression too. And probably anxiety, though I don't have any direct experience. I think it's no exaggeration to say that richer countries have been experiencing a rise in mental health issues, and that is in a large part, although not entirely, due to sedentary lifestyles.

DanBC 12y ago
> Exercise helps a ton with depression too. It probably doesn't. http://www.cochrane.org/CD004366/DEPRESSN_exercise-for-depression http://www.cochrane.org/CD004366/DEPRESSN_exercise-for-depre... > When only high-quality trials were included, exercise had only a small effect on mood that was not statistically significant. > Exercise is moderately more effective than no therapy for reducing symptoms of depression. > Exercise is no more effective than antidepressants for reducing symptoms of depression, although this conclusion is based on a small number of studies. > Exercise is no more effective than psychological therapies for reducing symptoms of depression, although this conclusion is based on small number of studies. > The reviewers also note that when only high-quality studies were included, the difference between exercise and no therapy is less conclusive. > Attendance rates for exercise treatments ranged from 50% to 100%. > The evidence about whether exercise for depression improves quality of life is inconclusive. You say > I think it's no exaggeration to say that richer countries have been experiencing a rise in mental health issues, and that is in a large part, although not entirely, due to sedentary lifestyles. What makes you think this? Plenty of very active people suffer depression and anxiety. There are a couple of sports people who have talked about their depression. You may have the causal link reversed - depression lowers ability to do stuff, and so depression causes inactivity. That's at least plausible.
- austinjp 12y ago
  The Cochrane report says the evidence for exercise as an intervention to improve depression is "inconclusive", whereas you say it "probably doesn't" help, which isn't the same thing. The various reviews of exercise-based interventions illustrate how complex it can be to implement trials and interpret their results. Frankly I'd encourage exercise in a depressed patient, rather than say it "probably doesn't help". There are numerous other benefits that could probably outweigh risks (although these should obviously be assessed on a case-by-case basis) and interventions should seek to minimise nocebo as well as maximise placebo -- ethically of course. It just might work for that patient, and actually that is a perfectly rational basis for treatment sometimes.
  - DanBC 12y ago
    > When only high-quality trials were included, exercise had only a small effect on mood that was not statistically significant. That seems pretty clear. > There are numerous other benefits Yes, recommend exercise because it is undoubtedly a good thing. Just don't recommend it as a treatment for depression, because "exercise [has] only a small effect on mood that [is] not statistically significant."
    - kbutler 12y ago
      Given a choice between exercise with questionable effectiveness and lots of good side effects, and anti-depressant drugs with questionable effectiveness and lots of negative side effects, I'd certainly try exercise, particularly in less-severe cases, where anti-depressant drugs do no better than a placebo. http://www.nimh.nih.gov/about/director/2011/antidepressants-a-complicated-picture.shtml http://www.nimh.nih.gov/about/director/2011/antidepressants-...
      - DanBC 12y ago
        Good thing I'm not pushing for medication either. Front line treatment is a talking therapy, probably CBT. Or, for moderate or severe depression the recommendation is a talking therapy and medication. Doubts about medication are weaker when the depression is more severe btw Your link repeats some things I've said (untreated suicide carries a risk of suicide; "In more severe forms of depression, antidepressants show greater efficacy." Etc)
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
- chubot 12y ago
  So I would admit that there is no strong evidence either way. For these types of issues, you can always find studies that contradict one another. Nonetheless the sheer magnitude of the issue is a signal that something widespread is going on. This page says 40 million US adults are affected, or 18% of the population. I've heard similar statistics before. http://www.adaa.org/about-adaa/press-room/facts-statistics http://www.adaa.org/about-adaa/press-room/facts-statistics This article is saying that exercise helps ADHD, which is another increasingly diagnosed mental disorder. That doesn't prove sedentary lifestyles are the cause, but the evidence seems consistent with that hypothesis. Yes, it's a vague hunch. I'm just saying it seems credible. I don't think it's very controversial that if you go to a psychiatrist for depression, they will ask how much you exercise, and if you don't, they will recommend it. They don't really have proof that it will help. But they will tell you that. It's the best they can do. Whether antidepressants or ADHD drugs help is also of some controversy as well, I believe. Certainly they do in many cases, but not in all cases. There's certainly nothing WRONG with exercise for a typical sedentary person, while there are known side effects to medication. And that doesn't mean they are exclusive -- medication + exercise may be the best solution for many people.
  - DanBC 12y ago
    > For these types of issues, you can always find studies that contradict one another. The cochrane collaboration perform meta analysis, so they have included the the research papers that say "exercise is a treatment for depression". Your casual dismissal of a well-respected organisation is odd. > Yes, it's a vague hunch. I'm just saying it seems credible. I don't think it's very controversial that if you go to a psychiatrist for depression, they will ask how much you exercise, and if you don't, they will recommend it. They don't really have proof that it will help. But they will tell you that. It's the best they can do. I've just shown you strong evidence that it's not "the best they can do". They recommend exercise because many mental health meds list weight gain and increased appetite as side effects; and because they're doctors and so they recommend exercise to everyone. > There's certainly nothing WRONG with exercise for a typical sedentary person, while there are known side effects to medication. And that doesn't mean they are exclusive -- medication + exercise may be the best solution for many people. You've worded this to suggest there's nothing wrong with exercise alone as a treatment for depression. That is wrong. Depression can be a fatal illness. 12 men per day die to suicide in the UK. It is important to get appropriate treatment.
RobertoLong 12y ago
Exercise has had a massive positive impact on my depression. For anyone suffering from depression, please check out my http://controlyourmindset.com/1 http://controlyourmindset.com/1 blog where I review the destroy depression system. Written by a former depression & PTSD sufferer, it teaches 7 natural steps which helped to eliminate depression from my life as well as many others and the success rate is very high.

by chubot 12y ago

DanBC 12y ago

> Exercise helps a ton with depression too. It probably doesn't. http://www.cochrane.org/CD004366/DEPRESSN_exercise-for-depression http://www.cochrane.org/CD004366/DEPRESSN_exercise-for-depre... > When only high-quality trials were included, exercise had only a small effect on mood that was not statistically significant. > Exercise is moderately more effective than no therapy for reducing symptoms of depression. > Exercise is no more effective than antidepressants for reducing symptoms of depression, although this conclusion is based on a small number of studies. > Exercise is no more effective than psychological therapies for reducing symptoms of depression, although this conclusion is based on small number of studies. > The reviewers also note that when only high-quality studies were included, the difference between exercise and no therapy is less conclusive. > Attendance rates for exercise treatments ranged from 50% to 100%. > The evidence about whether exercise for depression improves quality of life is inconclusive. You say > I think it's no exaggeration to say that richer countries have been experiencing a rise in mental health issues, and that is in a large part, although not entirely, due to sedentary lifestyles. What makes you think this? Plenty of very active people suffer depression and anxiety. There are a couple of sports people who have talked about their depression. You may have the causal link reversed - depression lowers ability to do stuff, and so depression causes inactivity. That's at least plausible.

austinjp 12y ago
The Cochrane report says the evidence for exercise as an intervention to improve depression is "inconclusive", whereas you say it "probably doesn't" help, which isn't the same thing. The various reviews of exercise-based interventions illustrate how complex it can be to implement trials and interpret their results. Frankly I'd encourage exercise in a depressed patient, rather than say it "probably doesn't help". There are numerous other benefits that could probably outweigh risks (although these should obviously be assessed on a case-by-case basis) and interventions should seek to minimise nocebo as well as maximise placebo -- ethically of course. It just might work for that patient, and actually that is a perfectly rational basis for treatment sometimes.
- DanBC 12y ago
  > When only high-quality trials were included, exercise had only a small effect on mood that was not statistically significant. That seems pretty clear. > There are numerous other benefits Yes, recommend exercise because it is undoubtedly a good thing. Just don't recommend it as a treatment for depression, because "exercise [has] only a small effect on mood that [is] not statistically significant."
  - kbutler 12y ago
    Given a choice between exercise with questionable effectiveness and lots of good side effects, and anti-depressant drugs with questionable effectiveness and lots of negative side effects, I'd certainly try exercise, particularly in less-severe cases, where anti-depressant drugs do no better than a placebo. http://www.nimh.nih.gov/about/director/2011/antidepressants-a-complicated-picture.shtml http://www.nimh.nih.gov/about/director/2011/antidepressants-...
    - DanBC 12y ago
      Good thing I'm not pushing for medication either. Front line treatment is a talking therapy, probably CBT. Or, for moderate or severe depression the recommendation is a talking therapy and medication. Doubts about medication are weaker when the depression is more severe btw Your link repeats some things I've said (untreated suicide carries a risk of suicide; "In more severe forms of depression, antidepressants show greater efficacy." Etc)
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
chubot 12y ago
So I would admit that there is no strong evidence either way. For these types of issues, you can always find studies that contradict one another. Nonetheless the sheer magnitude of the issue is a signal that something widespread is going on. This page says 40 million US adults are affected, or 18% of the population. I've heard similar statistics before. http://www.adaa.org/about-adaa/press-room/facts-statistics http://www.adaa.org/about-adaa/press-room/facts-statistics This article is saying that exercise helps ADHD, which is another increasingly diagnosed mental disorder. That doesn't prove sedentary lifestyles are the cause, but the evidence seems consistent with that hypothesis. Yes, it's a vague hunch. I'm just saying it seems credible. I don't think it's very controversial that if you go to a psychiatrist for depression, they will ask how much you exercise, and if you don't, they will recommend it. They don't really have proof that it will help. But they will tell you that. It's the best they can do. Whether antidepressants or ADHD drugs help is also of some controversy as well, I believe. Certainly they do in many cases, but not in all cases. There's certainly nothing WRONG with exercise for a typical sedentary person, while there are known side effects to medication. And that doesn't mean they are exclusive -- medication + exercise may be the best solution for many people.
- DanBC 12y ago
  > For these types of issues, you can always find studies that contradict one another. The cochrane collaboration perform meta analysis, so they have included the the research papers that say "exercise is a treatment for depression". Your casual dismissal of a well-respected organisation is odd. > Yes, it's a vague hunch. I'm just saying it seems credible. I don't think it's very controversial that if you go to a psychiatrist for depression, they will ask how much you exercise, and if you don't, they will recommend it. They don't really have proof that it will help. But they will tell you that. It's the best they can do. I've just shown you strong evidence that it's not "the best they can do". They recommend exercise because many mental health meds list weight gain and increased appetite as side effects; and because they're doctors and so they recommend exercise to everyone. > There's certainly nothing WRONG with exercise for a typical sedentary person, while there are known side effects to medication. And that doesn't mean they are exclusive -- medication + exercise may be the best solution for many people. You've worded this to suggest there's nothing wrong with exercise alone as a treatment for depression. That is wrong. Depression can be a fatal illness. 12 men per day die to suicide in the UK. It is important to get appropriate treatment.

RobertoLong 12y ago

Exercise has had a massive positive impact on my depression. For anyone suffering from depression, please check out my http://controlyourmindset.com/1 http://controlyourmindset.com/1 blog where I review the destroy depression system. Written by a former depression & PTSD sufferer, it teaches 7 natural steps which helped to eliminate depression from my life as well as many others and the success rate is very high.