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My point regarding Palestinians is that only the Palestinians had a right to sovereignty in that area (just like only Aboriginal Australians had a right to sove

My point regarding Palestinians is that only the Palestinians had a right to sovereignty in that area (just like only Aboriginal Australians had a right to sovereignty over Australia). Unlike the old yishuv, the Palestinians were the vast majority, making them the only legitimate rulers of that area of land, and also making the establishment of Israel and mass immigration by Jews illegitimate. I can't help you see an analogy that you are unwilling to see. At some point people have to use judgment and intuition, beyond mere facts. In any case, here are the key points 1. A group of people wish to establish a new society in an area of land. 2. There are already people living in that land. 3. Some attempts are made to justify this by claiming that the people living there do not comprise a nation. 4. Arguing for peaceful coexistence in such circumstances is hollow.

bsaul 11y ago
I see your point, but the land itself has a very different history. European never lived in america, or in australia, no matter how far you go in the past. Jewish people only historical land is in judea ( where it got its biblical name) / palestine. English or french or spanish didn't claim to "return" to america, and not a single archeological american item features scrolls written in english telling how life was when english lived there.. No palestinian kingdom or nation has ever existed, and this land was under the ruling of turks since the 13th century, and it has belonged to many different people througout history. Saying that only the arabs are legitimate there is a strange view of history. It is just one of the multiple people that has a strong connexion with that land ( the most recent one, that is right , and as such a very important one).
- Udik 11y ago
  The history of the land is irrelevant here. The idea that you can claim ownership of a land because it used to be your homeland thousands of years ago is completely abstract. While the hard reality is that in order to take, or retake, ownership of that land, you have to displace other people that has been living there for many generations. You can't do it peacefully. You have to take their houses, their fields, evacuate and destroy their villages, steal their property, and push them back each time they try to defend themselves against all this. Remote history won't convince anybody, anywhere, to leave their houses and live in a refugee camp. Though it might work to give a veneer of reasonableness to this expropriation, for the exclusive benefit of those who won't lose anything in the process.
  - bsaul 11y ago
    They didn't claim "ownership". People seem to forget jews didn't invade this land militarely. Under the ottoman empire or the british empire that would have been foolish. They purchased pieces of land. Only when the empire collapsed after two world wars, and israel was created, did people start to fight overall the country. Let's not inverse the chronology here. They didn't come from russia and ukraine with guns, but with agricultural tools. The Tel aviv region was built from scratch out of swamps and rocks that noone wanted. It wasn't "claimed". The fact that population got displaced is a result from wars, that happened after the state was created, and which were absolutely not part of the initial project.
- formulaT 11y ago
  I agree that the existence of Jews in Israel for thousands of years presents a difference but I think this difference is small for the following reasons. 1. The Jewish connection to Israel has been exaggerated by Zionists. The Jewish people were one of many living in present day Israel/Palestine (see [0]) 2. The existence of a Palestinian nation or kingdom is irrelevant, because a group of people can have a unique identity regardless of who is ruling them. Furthermore, there is no reason why the granularity of Jewish identity is the only relevant kind of identity. If Palestinians really only did possess a pan-Arab identity, it doesn't logically follow that they can be pushed out of where they live into any other Arab country. 3. Palestinians have been a recognizable nation since 700AD 3. Having left Israel and lived in Europe and other places for so long, Jewish people lost their right to return. [0] http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/origin.html http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/origin.html
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  - fihfgjcguctxt 11y ago
    Let's work through your points. Starting with your point number 1: Yes, perhaps Zionists stress the Jewish connection to Israel. But that's what makes them Zionists in the first place. Zionism is the belief that the Jews should return to the land of Zion--Israel (in Latin, Palistine). And it is also true that there has existed a strong desire to return to Israel in the Jewish people from the begining. Leaving Egypt, one could argue, was about returning to the land of Israel. A little more concretely, I suggest you read the book of Lamentations. Lamentations is a poem about returning to Israel after the Babylonian exile. After reading passages such as "If I forget Jerusalem, I will forget my right hand," it is evident that a passionate desire to return to Israel is not a fabrication by modern Zionists, but rather an integral part of the identity of the Jew. You then proceed with a non sequitor. Why does the existance of other people living in the land of Israel lessen the Jewish tie to the land of Israel? Finally, the website that you link to is officially recognized to be anti-semetic, so don't count on impartial information from it. I don't quite understand what you're getting at in your second point. Are you saying that the Palestinians have their own identity? I'm sure they do. It just isn't clear to me how that backs up your argument. I'm genuinely curious. As for your first point number three, I don't see its validity. There was no such thing as a nation until the rise of nationalism--far after 700 C.E. Next, in response to your second point number three, going into the Diaspora was not a choice for the Jews. They were forced out. Do they lose the right to return after being forcefully evicted? Finally, we can argue about political theory all we want. The bottom line is that Israel exists. Even if you do not agree with its policies, you should not advocate for its destruction. Israel is a sovereign and democratic nation (not to mention a center of growth and innovation) and by virtue of existing, it deserves to exist as much as any other nation does. Thank you for reading

bsaul 11y ago

I see your point, but the land itself has a very different history. European never lived in america, or in australia, no matter how far you go in the past. Jewish people only historical land is in judea ( where it got its biblical name) / palestine. English or french or spanish didn't claim to "return" to america, and not a single archeological american item features scrolls written in english telling how life was when english lived there.. No palestinian kingdom or nation has ever existed, and this land was under the ruling of turks since the 13th century, and it has belonged to many different people througout history. Saying that only the arabs are legitimate there is a strange view of history. It is just one of the multiple people that has a strong connexion with that land ( the most recent one, that is right , and as such a very important one).

Udik 11y ago
The history of the land is irrelevant here. The idea that you can claim ownership of a land because it used to be your homeland thousands of years ago is completely abstract. While the hard reality is that in order to take, or retake, ownership of that land, you have to displace other people that has been living there for many generations. You can't do it peacefully. You have to take their houses, their fields, evacuate and destroy their villages, steal their property, and push them back each time they try to defend themselves against all this. Remote history won't convince anybody, anywhere, to leave their houses and live in a refugee camp. Though it might work to give a veneer of reasonableness to this expropriation, for the exclusive benefit of those who won't lose anything in the process.
- bsaul 11y ago
  They didn't claim "ownership". People seem to forget jews didn't invade this land militarely. Under the ottoman empire or the british empire that would have been foolish. They purchased pieces of land. Only when the empire collapsed after two world wars, and israel was created, did people start to fight overall the country. Let's not inverse the chronology here. They didn't come from russia and ukraine with guns, but with agricultural tools. The Tel aviv region was built from scratch out of swamps and rocks that noone wanted. It wasn't "claimed". The fact that population got displaced is a result from wars, that happened after the state was created, and which were absolutely not part of the initial project.
formulaT 11y ago
I agree that the existence of Jews in Israel for thousands of years presents a difference but I think this difference is small for the following reasons. 1. The Jewish connection to Israel has been exaggerated by Zionists. The Jewish people were one of many living in present day Israel/Palestine (see [0]) 2. The existence of a Palestinian nation or kingdom is irrelevant, because a group of people can have a unique identity regardless of who is ruling them. Furthermore, there is no reason why the granularity of Jewish identity is the only relevant kind of identity. If Palestinians really only did possess a pan-Arab identity, it doesn't logically follow that they can be pushed out of where they live into any other Arab country. 3. Palestinians have been a recognizable nation since 700AD 3. Having left Israel and lived in Europe and other places for so long, Jewish people lost their right to return. [0] http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/origin.html http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/origin.html
- deleted 11y ago
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- fihfgjcguctxt 11y ago
  Let's work through your points. Starting with your point number 1: Yes, perhaps Zionists stress the Jewish connection to Israel. But that's what makes them Zionists in the first place. Zionism is the belief that the Jews should return to the land of Zion--Israel (in Latin, Palistine). And it is also true that there has existed a strong desire to return to Israel in the Jewish people from the begining. Leaving Egypt, one could argue, was about returning to the land of Israel. A little more concretely, I suggest you read the book of Lamentations. Lamentations is a poem about returning to Israel after the Babylonian exile. After reading passages such as "If I forget Jerusalem, I will forget my right hand," it is evident that a passionate desire to return to Israel is not a fabrication by modern Zionists, but rather an integral part of the identity of the Jew. You then proceed with a non sequitor. Why does the existance of other people living in the land of Israel lessen the Jewish tie to the land of Israel? Finally, the website that you link to is officially recognized to be anti-semetic, so don't count on impartial information from it. I don't quite understand what you're getting at in your second point. Are you saying that the Palestinians have their own identity? I'm sure they do. It just isn't clear to me how that backs up your argument. I'm genuinely curious. As for your first point number three, I don't see its validity. There was no such thing as a nation until the rise of nationalism--far after 700 C.E. Next, in response to your second point number three, going into the Diaspora was not a choice for the Jews. They were forced out. Do they lose the right to return after being forcefully evicted? Finally, we can argue about political theory all we want. The bottom line is that Israel exists. Even if you do not agree with its policies, you should not advocate for its destruction. Israel is a sovereign and democratic nation (not to mention a center of growth and innovation) and by virtue of existing, it deserves to exist as much as any other nation does. Thank you for reading