4 ms·

This is why I tend to roll my eyes when people advocate legalizing all drugs, no matter what. All the talk about giving up on the failed war on drugs starts to

This is why I tend to roll my eyes when people advocate legalizing all drugs, no matter what. All the talk about giving up on the failed war on drugs starts to matter a whole lot less when it's your loved ones who you're not sure you're ever going to see alive again on a day to day basis. I'm completely willing to grant that keeping certain drugs (like marijuana) illegal isn't effective or necessary from a public safety standpoint compared to legalization/regulation. But for dealers of heroin and other hard drugs like these, I support extremely, extremely harsh penalties and much stronger enforcement. Far harsher and much stronger than what we currently have. At least that's my (likely unpopular) opinion.

tmp-20150107 12y ago
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_policy_of_Portugal http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_policy_of_Portugal for an example of decriminalisation of posession of all drugs, even heroin. Dealers are still prosecuted, but users are not. This seems like a sane solution.
- king_magic 12y ago
  Totally agree with not prosecuting users. It's the dealers that need to be dealt with.
- vidarh 12y ago
  It still fails to address many of the worst problems of criminalisation of drugs, namely the level of other crime associated with production and distribution, and the sale of contaminated products. The biggest risk from heroin, for example, is contamination and varying strength, not the drug itself. E.g. street heroin is often mixed with all kinds of other drugs or stuff like brick dust. Clean medicinal heroin is a quite safe drug (safe enough to be used for e.g. post-op pain relief as an alternative to morphine in some cases in the UK, for example - if you are ever prescribed "diamorphine", that's heroin). Decriminalisation of possession is basically a halfway step where politicians don't have to admit to how horribly criminalisation have failed, but can instead "sell" the change as caring about the addicts. But if they really cared about the addicts they wouldn't keep leaving them in a position where they're injecting drugs contaminated by brick dust and where they are still left dealing with criminals for their supply.
legulere 12y ago
Legalization might be the wrong word for it but you can actually get heroin legally in some european countries when you are addicted. In Germany this means you have to show up at the doctor and use the heroin there. You can't help people that are already addicted by persecuting dealers more, but you can make it more safe for them in lots of ways (harm reduction). Cutting out the dealers might even help getting less people addicted.
DanBC 12y ago
Several countries have the death penalty for some drug crimes. Those penalties do not stop addicts. Why do you think your harsh penalties would? If I had a loved one addicted to heroin I would not like them to spend time in prison. I'd want them to receive treatment. Targetting heroin use as a public health problem means you reduce the impact that drug use has on society, and you save money.
- king_magic 12y ago
  I also am not advocating increased penalties for users. Only dealers.
  - DanBC 12y ago
    Death penalties do not stop smugglers or dealers. Why do you think your harsh penalties will? Edit: here's one article talking about people being executed for drug smuggling: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-31124858 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-31124858 And here's another one explaining why harsh sentences do not want to deter drug dealers: http://m.smh.com.au/world/does-the-death-penalty-deter-drug-smugglers-20150123-12wby2.html http://m.smh.com.au/world/does-the-death-penalty-deter-drug-...
    - king_magic 12y ago
      Nowhere did I say I support capital punishment. What I am saying is that we as a society harshly punish other types of criminals who prey on the weak (identity theft, molestation, etc.), so why do we continue to make excuses for this category of criminal? Will harsher penalties deter dealers? Maybe, maybe not. But if a dealer isn't deterred, I'd still rather see them rot in prison than live freely in society.
      - DanBC 12y ago
        The point is that risk of death does not deter sellers; why do you think a long prison sentence will deter drug sellers? > so why do we continue to make excuses for this category of criminal? I am genuinely baffled by this comment. American prisons hold more people - by any measure - than any other society. (America is 5% of the world population but has 25% of the world's prisoners.) Many of those people are serving very long sentences for drug offences. More than half of federal prisoners are there for drug crime, only about 16% of state prisoners are there for drug crime. As of 2001 one in six black American men had been incarcerated! Here's an article talking about the very long (and racistly applied) prison sentencing for minor drug related crime: http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/07/29/opinion/high-time-the-injustice-of-marijuana-arrests.html http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/07/29/opinion/high-time-the-i... > In October 2010, Bernard Noble, a 45-year-old trucker and father of seven with two previous nonviolent offenses, was stopped on a New Orleans street with a small amount of marijuana in his pocket. His sentence: more than 13 years. > At least he will be released. Jeff Mizanskey, a Missouri man, was arrested in December 1993, for participating (unknowingly, he said) in the purchase of a five-pound brick of marijuana. Because he had two prior nonviolent marijuana convictions, he was sentenced to life without parole. That's life for a cannabis related crime. I don't understand how you think drug dealers in the US get light sentences? "African Americans serve virtually as much time in prison for a drug offense (58.7 months) as whites do for a violent offense (61.7 months). (Sentencing Project)" (from link below) And so far the only justification you've given for even longer sentences is that it'd make you feel good. You started this thread by saying that you didn't want to see drugs legalised. So criminal sellers only exist because you have laws against selling the drug. This is obviously going to select for a certain type of person. Removing those people from the chain of supply is one of the reasons to legalise! Why would I visit a scumbag criminal to buy contaminated heroin when I can get a clean product of known strength from a pharmacy? Society has limited funds to deal with the problems that drugs cause. We can either spend that on very expensive enforcement of law (which tends to be racist in its application) and prison (which clearly hasn't stopped drug use yet despite very long sentences. Or we can spend the money on treatment of addiction; sexual health; child protection; awareness. We save money if we legalised drugs. Race and drug crime: http://www.naacp.org/pages/criminal-justice-fact-sheet http://www.naacp.org/pages/criminal-justice-fact-sheet Drug crime and prison: http://www.drugwarfacts.org/cms/prisons_and_drugs#sthash.OPrPd10k.dpbs http://www.drugwarfacts.org/cms/prisons_and_drugs#sthash.OPr...

tmp-20150107 12y ago

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_policy_of_Portugal http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_policy_of_Portugal for an example of decriminalisation of posession of all drugs, even heroin. Dealers are still prosecuted, but users are not. This seems like a sane solution.

king_magic 12y ago
Totally agree with not prosecuting users. It's the dealers that need to be dealt with.
vidarh 12y ago
It still fails to address many of the worst problems of criminalisation of drugs, namely the level of other crime associated with production and distribution, and the sale of contaminated products. The biggest risk from heroin, for example, is contamination and varying strength, not the drug itself. E.g. street heroin is often mixed with all kinds of other drugs or stuff like brick dust. Clean medicinal heroin is a quite safe drug (safe enough to be used for e.g. post-op pain relief as an alternative to morphine in some cases in the UK, for example - if you are ever prescribed "diamorphine", that's heroin). Decriminalisation of possession is basically a halfway step where politicians don't have to admit to how horribly criminalisation have failed, but can instead "sell" the change as caring about the addicts. But if they really cared about the addicts they wouldn't keep leaving them in a position where they're injecting drugs contaminated by brick dust and where they are still left dealing with criminals for their supply.

legulere 12y ago

Legalization might be the wrong word for it but you can actually get heroin legally in some european countries when you are addicted. In Germany this means you have to show up at the doctor and use the heroin there. You can't help people that are already addicted by persecuting dealers more, but you can make it more safe for them in lots of ways (harm reduction). Cutting out the dealers might even help getting less people addicted.

DanBC 12y ago

Several countries have the death penalty for some drug crimes. Those penalties do not stop addicts. Why do you think your harsh penalties would? If I had a loved one addicted to heroin I would not like them to spend time in prison. I'd want them to receive treatment. Targetting heroin use as a public health problem means you reduce the impact that drug use has on society, and you save money.

king_magic 12y ago
I also am not advocating increased penalties for users. Only dealers.
- DanBC 12y ago
  Death penalties do not stop smugglers or dealers. Why do you think your harsh penalties will? Edit: here's one article talking about people being executed for drug smuggling: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-31124858 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-31124858 And here's another one explaining why harsh sentences do not want to deter drug dealers: http://m.smh.com.au/world/does-the-death-penalty-deter-drug-smugglers-20150123-12wby2.html http://m.smh.com.au/world/does-the-death-penalty-deter-drug-...
  - king_magic 12y ago
    Nowhere did I say I support capital punishment. What I am saying is that we as a society harshly punish other types of criminals who prey on the weak (identity theft, molestation, etc.), so why do we continue to make excuses for this category of criminal? Will harsher penalties deter dealers? Maybe, maybe not. But if a dealer isn't deterred, I'd still rather see them rot in prison than live freely in society.
    - DanBC 12y ago
      The point is that risk of death does not deter sellers; why do you think a long prison sentence will deter drug sellers? > so why do we continue to make excuses for this category of criminal? I am genuinely baffled by this comment. American prisons hold more people - by any measure - than any other society. (America is 5% of the world population but has 25% of the world's prisoners.) Many of those people are serving very long sentences for drug offences. More than half of federal prisoners are there for drug crime, only about 16% of state prisoners are there for drug crime. As of 2001 one in six black American men had been incarcerated! Here's an article talking about the very long (and racistly applied) prison sentencing for minor drug related crime: http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/07/29/opinion/high-time-the-injustice-of-marijuana-arrests.html http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/07/29/opinion/high-time-the-i... > In October 2010, Bernard Noble, a 45-year-old trucker and father of seven with two previous nonviolent offenses, was stopped on a New Orleans street with a small amount of marijuana in his pocket. His sentence: more than 13 years. > At least he will be released. Jeff Mizanskey, a Missouri man, was arrested in December 1993, for participating (unknowingly, he said) in the purchase of a five-pound brick of marijuana. Because he had two prior nonviolent marijuana convictions, he was sentenced to life without parole. That's life for a cannabis related crime. I don't understand how you think drug dealers in the US get light sentences? "African Americans serve virtually as much time in prison for a drug offense (58.7 months) as whites do for a violent offense (61.7 months). (Sentencing Project)" (from link below) And so far the only justification you've given for even longer sentences is that it'd make you feel good. You started this thread by saying that you didn't want to see drugs legalised. So criminal sellers only exist because you have laws against selling the drug. This is obviously going to select for a certain type of person. Removing those people from the chain of supply is one of the reasons to legalise! Why would I visit a scumbag criminal to buy contaminated heroin when I can get a clean product of known strength from a pharmacy? Society has limited funds to deal with the problems that drugs cause. We can either spend that on very expensive enforcement of law (which tends to be racist in its application) and prison (which clearly hasn't stopped drug use yet despite very long sentences. Or we can spend the money on treatment of addiction; sexual health; child protection; awareness. We save money if we legalised drugs. Race and drug crime: http://www.naacp.org/pages/criminal-justice-fact-sheet http://www.naacp.org/pages/criminal-justice-fact-sheet Drug crime and prison: http://www.drugwarfacts.org/cms/prisons_and_drugs#sthash.OPrPd10k.dpbs http://www.drugwarfacts.org/cms/prisons_and_drugs#sthash.OPr...