5 ms·

Pretty harsh criticisms. You must be an expert. Ok, what electrical generation capacity would you have built for Hawaii?

toomuchtodo 12y ago
Distributed solar on roofs, offshore wind, and combined cycle natural gas for peaking and base load until renewables complete their buildout.
- falsestprophet 12y ago
  How do you get natural gas to Hawaii fifty years ago? You can't. You would use oil tankers like they did.
  - icebraining 12y ago
    Nobody is criticizing the Hawaiian electric grid of the 1960s.
    - ars 12y ago
      Yes they are because it's the same grid as 2015. Power grids are built to last centuries, they are not replaced or changed quickly.
      - the8472 12y ago
        Then that needs to change. Carbon footprint is more important than some utility's profits.
      - yazaddaruvala 12y ago
        I think that your very valid point IS the critique. Having power grids "last centuries" was a noble endeavor, however, it is now a hinderance. The idea that customers should care about the utility company's long term investment, in their 100 year grid is not a good one. Consumers shouldn't have to care about a companies long term investment "paying off". All that means for the company is that their investment failed, and they need to try again.
      - Retric 12y ago
        Power grids are designed for much more rapid turnover than that, easily 90% of the power grid that was around in 1960 has been replaced. Ex: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utility_pole http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utility_pole lasts an average of 25-50 years depending on area, but Hawaii is at the low end of that scale.
- rjsw 12y ago
  Hawaii could copy Iceland and add geothermal to solar and wind. It has plenty of hills to build a bit of pumped hydro storage on too.
  - mchannon 12y ago
    Iceland has excellent Geothermal resources. Hawaii, if you actually sit down and look at where the geothermal resources are (big island and a tiny amount on Maui, not where 90+% of electricity is used on Oahu), will force you to conclude that they couldn't copy Iceland and are stuck with other renewables.
    - caf 12y ago
      The distance from the big island to Oahu appears to be feasible for an underwater HVDC cable (eg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basslink http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basslink ). If the geothermal was cheap enough, this might be worthwhile.
      - grogenaut 12y ago
        370km, nice!
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
revelation 12y ago
I think it's been clear for the last fifteen years that oil for electricity generation is untenable. My only remaining concern is that it will take far far too long to unhitch a utility company that has already clearly demonstrated it has no interest whatsoever to change. Was oil a bad choice when there were no affordable regenerative methods? Probably no. My concern isn't with their initial choice, it's with their more recent choice to fight solar and other regenerative energy sources instead of embracing them.
- jellicle 12y ago
  But there's no evidence of that at all. In fact, Hawaii has the largest percentage of rooftop solar of any state and by far the fastest uptake. The facts are the exact opposite of your thesis.
  - revelation 12y ago
    The facts are evidence of electricity being very very expensive in Hawaii, to the point where even the most unfavorable policy on solar in the western world makes installing solar a very worthwhile investment if you have the space and upfront cash. Of course this state of affairs tells you a lot about HECO. You have to be a special blend of incompetent if you can't use solar in a place where air conditioning makes up large swaths of load, which has this funny synergy with the sun. In a parallel line of discussion you would presumably tell me the increase in heroin consumption is evidence of a more welcoming stance on its use in society. No, its just such a powerful drug that the DEAs activities only increases the number of addicts.

toomuchtodo 12y ago

Distributed solar on roofs, offshore wind, and combined cycle natural gas for peaking and base load until renewables complete their buildout.

falsestprophet 12y ago
How do you get natural gas to Hawaii fifty years ago? You can't. You would use oil tankers like they did.
- icebraining 12y ago
  Nobody is criticizing the Hawaiian electric grid of the 1960s.
  - ars 12y ago
    Yes they are because it's the same grid as 2015. Power grids are built to last centuries, they are not replaced or changed quickly.
    - the8472 12y ago
      Then that needs to change. Carbon footprint is more important than some utility's profits.
    - yazaddaruvala 12y ago
      I think that your very valid point IS the critique. Having power grids "last centuries" was a noble endeavor, however, it is now a hinderance. The idea that customers should care about the utility company's long term investment, in their 100 year grid is not a good one. Consumers shouldn't have to care about a companies long term investment "paying off". All that means for the company is that their investment failed, and they need to try again.
    - Retric 12y ago
      Power grids are designed for much more rapid turnover than that, easily 90% of the power grid that was around in 1960 has been replaced. Ex: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utility_pole http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utility_pole lasts an average of 25-50 years depending on area, but Hawaii is at the low end of that scale.
rjsw 12y ago
Hawaii could copy Iceland and add geothermal to solar and wind. It has plenty of hills to build a bit of pumped hydro storage on too.
- mchannon 12y ago
  Iceland has excellent Geothermal resources. Hawaii, if you actually sit down and look at where the geothermal resources are (big island and a tiny amount on Maui, not where 90+% of electricity is used on Oahu), will force you to conclude that they couldn't copy Iceland and are stuck with other renewables.
  - caf 12y ago
    The distance from the big island to Oahu appears to be feasible for an underwater HVDC cable (eg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basslink http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basslink ). If the geothermal was cheap enough, this might be worthwhile.
    - grogenaut 12y ago
      370km, nice!
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]

revelation 12y ago

I think it's been clear for the last fifteen years that oil for electricity generation is untenable. My only remaining concern is that it will take far far too long to unhitch a utility company that has already clearly demonstrated it has no interest whatsoever to change. Was oil a bad choice when there were no affordable regenerative methods? Probably no. My concern isn't with their initial choice, it's with their more recent choice to fight solar and other regenerative energy sources instead of embracing them.

jellicle 12y ago
But there's no evidence of that at all. In fact, Hawaii has the largest percentage of rooftop solar of any state and by far the fastest uptake. The facts are the exact opposite of your thesis.
- revelation 12y ago
  The facts are evidence of electricity being very very expensive in Hawaii, to the point where even the most unfavorable policy on solar in the western world makes installing solar a very worthwhile investment if you have the space and upfront cash. Of course this state of affairs tells you a lot about HECO. You have to be a special blend of incompetent if you can't use solar in a place where air conditioning makes up large swaths of load, which has this funny synergy with the sun. In a parallel line of discussion you would presumably tell me the increase in heroin consumption is evidence of a more welcoming stance on its use in society. No, its just such a powerful drug that the DEAs activities only increases the number of addicts.