6 ms·

I also found the statements in the leading and final quotes almost absurdly contradictory. "Fuck you, I didn't choose this, but I love it." Living in a city wi

I also found the statements in the leading and final quotes almost absurdly contradictory. "Fuck you, I didn't choose this, but I love it." Living in a city with a lot of visible homelessness and panhandling, I constantly struggle with what the right thing to do is. It seems like the only way to be sure you're helping is to only ever hand out food, or actually offer someone a place to stay. I used to hand out money when I had some on hand, but on reflection it seems irresponsible - what if that $5 is what ends their life by allowing them to OD or buy unsafe drugs? It could just as easily save their life by providing food or shelter, but by my reasoning it makes more sense to cut out the middleman. Throwing into the mix that some people are choosing this lifestyle for reasons of "freedom" from society (while simultaneously depending heavily upon its existence and the generosity of others) just confuses the matter more for me. If anyone has a good moral framework for this I'd be interested in hearing it.

rayiner 11y ago
I always give cash if I have some on hand. Good odds they'll use it to buy a drink, which is fine because hell, I need a drink after a long day and I'm not even homeless. And there is a non-zero chance he or she really does need it to get food or get in from the cold for the night. Wouldn't want to risk not giving money when there was a genuine need because I'm worried about the case where there isn't.
- cynicalkane 11y ago
  I'm not an expert, but I've heard from authorities on the subject that the "deserving homeless" is almost entirely a myth. The scenario of someone who is down on their luck and has to beg is rare, and they tend to do that for a relatively short amount of time. The odds are strong that you are giving your money to a person suffering from substance abuse or mental illness. Then again, I just moved to New York, and I'm naturally biased towards interpretations that match my recent personal experience.
  - jarin 11y ago
    The "deserving homeless" are generally able to take advantage of resources that are available, like shelters, soup kitchens, etc. Although I hate that term, because it's bad enough that we're already divided by class in this country, and now we have to impose our own classes on the homeless?
  - foldr 11y ago
    People with mental health problems and drug addictions also "deserve" to have enough money to live on. Even if you insist on seeing these things as moral failings, aren't they already being punished enough?
    - cynicalkane 11y ago
      You are arguing against a very insulting straw man, and I would ordinarily not consider you not worth addressing except that a lot of people apparently think along the same ridiculous lines. Panhandlers in major cities are at low risk of not having food available to them. The idea of the 'starving homeless' is another counterfactual myth, just as much as the 'deserving homeless'--but if it really concerns you, there are far more directly expedient ways of helping them than giving away money. Services and shelters for the homeless are pretty terrible, but I've never heard anyone credible say that these services are worse than the shortsighted, feel-good solution of giving people money they are fundamentally incapable of spending correctly. By contrast, it is common for the homeless to die of exposure--not because they had no shelter available, but because they are mentally ill and fell into a pattern of denying it to themselves, even on the coldest days.
      - foldr 11y ago
        Speaking of straw men, please note that I didn't say anything about people starving. By all means, give money to shelters etc. But why not also give money to homeless people? The two are not mutually exclusive. You are repeating the usual mean-spirited argument that we shouldn't give homeless people money because they might spend it on things we don't approve of. But so what? It's their life, not ours. Charity with strings attached isn't charity. I find it a useful exercise to imagine applying the same logic in dealing with comfortably well-off middle class people. If such a person has an alcohol problem, the usual reaction amongst reasonably enlightened people is to try to find that person help. We don't try to cut off all of their sources of income on the grounds that they'll just spend it all on booze. Now, perhaps some of them will spend all of their income on booze, but since we aren't so much in the habit of completely dehumanizing them, we recognize that this is still their choice to make. The bottom line here is that drug and alcohol habits don't cost infinite amounts of money. You can perfectly well spend some of your money on drugs and the rest on food, etc. Unless you have some kind of moral objection to people using drugs, why should you care if a homeless person is spending some of their money that way? It's judgmental and mean to refuse them money because you suspect that they might be going to do this.
- marcusgarvey 11y ago
  >Good odds they'll use it to buy a drink, which is fine because hell, I need a drink after a long day and I'm not even homeless. Thanks for saying this. The homeless and the poor are human beings and should not be demonized for having the niceties that make anyone's life more joyful. (Kansas, I'm not so sure you're doing it right [1].) I once read about and have since admired a very enlightened approach to this, in the UK: when measuring the average cost of living in addition to things like food and shelter they will also include the money that a household would need to take a one-week vacation. [1] http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/govbeat/wp/2015/04/06/kansas-wants-to-ban-welfare-recipients-from-seeing-movies-going-swimming-on-governments-dime/ http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/govbeat/wp/2015/04/06/ka...
  - hueving 11y ago
    Alcoholism doesn't make life more joyful. That's the level of drinking many homeless people do.
    - marcusgarvey 11y ago
      I'm not condoning the encouragement of alcoholism. But I absolutely applaud anyone or any policy that recognizes that poor and homeless people are...people.
  - IkmoIkmo 11y ago
    > they will also include the money that a household would need to take a one-week vacation. Pretty standard (Western) Europe welfare model afaik. Here in the Netherlands it's called 'vacation money', and if you don't have a job and can show you're applying for one, you'll get a minimum wage income and vacation money is indeed included in that as a bonus once a year. > the poor are human beings and should not be demonized for having the niceties Absolutely, but you mentioned the UK. I visited the Emmaus centre in Cambridge a few years ago, all the lads there (ex homeless often for more than a decade) told me to never give money because buying alcohol isn't just 'nice', it's a disease that destroys people and there are alternative solutions. They all lived that life. I'm not going to say 'don't give', but if you somehow know for certain it's spent on alcohol, I definitely would say don't give. At least, taking it from ex homeless guys who still struggle with alcoholism and the life they live now at Emmaus. Perhaps it's different in various shitholes in the world where there is nothing to rely on, I can imagine alcohol being a sensible temporary relief, but in cities with capacity for homelessness issues, it's not a good choice. And if you look at Europe for example, you'll find that e.g. the Council of Europe has ruled various times now that not just citizens, but also refugees, all of them, without fail, are to be provided a minimum of shelter, food and clothes. Not saying it's a perfect situation, far from it, and sadly professional homelessness relief still relies way too heavily on charity and voluntarism, but in many cities giving money for alcohol is simple not the best thing to do at best, and harmful at worst.
- beachstartup 11y ago
  i usually don't give money to homeless people although i will help them if they need something specific. i don't judge them at all because i (we all) have the same vices just in less debilitating incarnations, but at the end of the day... well, i don't hand out cash to non-homeless strangers either.
- dghughes 11y ago
  This is the modern problem though at least in my region, most people don't carry any cash at all not even coins. Everything is bought using debit cards even credit cards are not as common as debit. Even the parking meters here have stickers with numbers on them and you use an app (Hotspot) to add money to that meters, although you can still use change of course. Elderly people are the only people I know of who use coins and cash.
sosuke 11y ago
Don't give to a single person, give to a food bank, donate money or time to a shelter. If a single person asks you tell them where you give all your donations and they are welcome to go.
- DenisM 11y ago
  That's right. If your city has visible homeless population, it also has shelters, soup kitchens, churches that help them, etc. Donate to some of those organizations, and only ever hand out the list of all places where to get food/shelter/counseling.
magnifyingglass 11y ago
> "Fuck you, I didn't choose this, but I love it." You'll find that most difficult experiences people endure in life don't make sense on a logical level. You'll also probably find it hard to empathize with. If you've heard of love hate relationships, it's sort of like that. I wasn't homeless, but my father was as a child under 5-10 for some time (I am not exactly sure how long). All I can really say is sometimes it feels like you've been born into a path that is predetermined by fate, you've tried as hard as you can to jump over that wall to get out of that path, and every time you try, someone kicks you out. So you wind up rationalizing your current circumstances, finding value where you can while you have to live it, and generally developing intolerance for people who do not tolerate you. But most of the time, quick snaps of the tongue like this are exactly that. They are a flit of emotion, over a thing that is a tangled web of emotion. These are complicated things. It is sad to me, but most of the time, instead of helping, all I can do is continue trying to survive, so I don't have to live the life my parents did.
IkmoIkmo 11y ago
It's tricky. I've both personally visited homeless shelters where ex-homeless people lived and worked under guidance and coaching, and the general story from them was 'don't give money'. Maybe of them used drugs in the past and said the cliche is completely true. In that case, if someone asks, best politely say no, direct them to places where they can get help (most advanced economies have some capacity in every city), and take the money and donate it to said places or another cause when you get home, pool it in a jar for a once a month or whatever donation if you want. On the other hand, someone close to me in my own family was homeless for quite some time after a wrongful prison conviction. Despite him having enjoyed a great life, big social circle, never addicted, enjoyed higher education and a nice career etc, typical upper-middle class stuff, he struggled on the streets. His prison time carried stigma that he didn't deserve, but couldn't be proven innocent. He stayed on the streets partly because he was afraid to ask for help, to be seen. And partly because he was convicted on a holiday, outside of the country he knew well with a limited network. Someone else in my family took him in, from the streets, gave him some money, a roof to stay under etc. And that's why this person is part of my family now. And I've spoken to numerous ex-homeless who had no addiction, and just didn't have any food or a roof to stay under. Or recently when we partially funded the first month rent for an illegal immigrant. He now has a painting job etc. It's an uncertain existence for him, but he's got an alright life and contributes his share to society and is financially independent. The issue is that cases like this require time to evaluate that you tend not to have passing someone by. In short, I'm similarly conflicted and usually do give. When I have time I tend to have a chat and ask what they need. They'll say 'some change' or whatever and I'll just cheerfully say huh, why? And they'll say for some food or w/e, and I'll just hang out with them for 20min and buy them some food and eat with them. Best case he actually wanted money for food and had some social contact, worst case I fed someone who didn't starve and had a nice chat.
curun1r 11y ago
You could give out gift cards. Almost every grocery store sells them and there are reasonably-healthy fast food options (Subway) that have them as well. It's pretty easy to carry a bunch around in a wallet or purse. Pick whatever denomination you'd normally give in cash. It doesn't guarantee that it won't be traded for cash to buy drugs and alcohol, but it's certainly more of a hassle to do that than to spend it on food.
wcummings 11y ago
>what if that $5 is what ends their life by allowing them to OD or buy unsafe drugs? If they need liquor to stop withdrawals, the money is well spent as far as I'm concerned. Not everyone is in the position to get treatment.
- spacemanmatt 11y ago
  Check your monocle
ddingus 11y ago
There is one for addiction issues. Maybe it's more generally applicable, but it goes like this: They are an addict, and somehow, each day, they are going to get whatever it is. And they are going to do it, because they have to do it. And for some of these people who are homeless, they are going to do what they do, because they feel they have to do it... In any case, getting that thing, whatever it is, can go the easy way, or the hard way. They could be giving blows in an alley, or pay with some money they got on the streets from kind people, or due to the property crime. We can't make people do anything. Not really. They, themselves have got to resolve to improve, or do things differently, or they simply won't. We can put incentives out there, punishments, and all sorts of things, but in the end, they really do have to resolve to do things differently, or it really won't happen. Every year, a few of these people get there. One day, they see something, experience something that brings that resolution about! And with that comes motivation, and with that motivation comes the doing of things differently. Nobody but them knows when this is, and often they don't even know when this is. And until they get there, it's the easy way, or the hard way. If we look at the cost of this, those costs can be low, average, or high, depending on how often it's the easy way or the hard way. And when they get there, how much potential remains? That too is determined by the easy way and the hard way. So when we give, we are helping to pay down those costs. It's up to them to get there, and when they do, they will appreciate all of us who helped get them there at a much lower cost and risk to themselves as beings, and they will be capable of that much more too. One of us, who gives that dollar, thinking they will just go buy another beer, will be that person who gave the dollar that got them there. They don't buy a beer, instead a razor, clean up and improve from there. We can't make their choices for them, but we can continue to present the option of doing things differently, and that happens one gift, one less hard way at a time. In general, we are helping out. And the help is in the form of harm reduction to preserve their options, health, and buy them time during their struggle. If you think about it, real help, selfless type help, not controlling help that comes with strings and such, is a gift. It's a gift with the best of intent, and in this world intent is what matters. When your intent is to help, you are doing the right thing --and it's the right thing even when it doesn't appear to have done much, or the bad outcome seems your doing. It's not, and it can't be, because we can't make their choices. Only they can. And if we don't give that help, so many more of them won't ever get there at all. It's nothing to most of us. Every so often, it's all that ever did matter to them.

rayiner 11y ago

I always give cash if I have some on hand. Good odds they'll use it to buy a drink, which is fine because hell, I need a drink after a long day and I'm not even homeless. And there is a non-zero chance he or she really does need it to get food or get in from the cold for the night. Wouldn't want to risk not giving money when there was a genuine need because I'm worried about the case where there isn't.

cynicalkane 11y ago
I'm not an expert, but I've heard from authorities on the subject that the "deserving homeless" is almost entirely a myth. The scenario of someone who is down on their luck and has to beg is rare, and they tend to do that for a relatively short amount of time. The odds are strong that you are giving your money to a person suffering from substance abuse or mental illness. Then again, I just moved to New York, and I'm naturally biased towards interpretations that match my recent personal experience.
- jarin 11y ago
  The "deserving homeless" are generally able to take advantage of resources that are available, like shelters, soup kitchens, etc. Although I hate that term, because it's bad enough that we're already divided by class in this country, and now we have to impose our own classes on the homeless?
- foldr 11y ago
  People with mental health problems and drug addictions also "deserve" to have enough money to live on. Even if you insist on seeing these things as moral failings, aren't they already being punished enough?
  - cynicalkane 11y ago
    You are arguing against a very insulting straw man, and I would ordinarily not consider you not worth addressing except that a lot of people apparently think along the same ridiculous lines. Panhandlers in major cities are at low risk of not having food available to them. The idea of the 'starving homeless' is another counterfactual myth, just as much as the 'deserving homeless'--but if it really concerns you, there are far more directly expedient ways of helping them than giving away money. Services and shelters for the homeless are pretty terrible, but I've never heard anyone credible say that these services are worse than the shortsighted, feel-good solution of giving people money they are fundamentally incapable of spending correctly. By contrast, it is common for the homeless to die of exposure--not because they had no shelter available, but because they are mentally ill and fell into a pattern of denying it to themselves, even on the coldest days.
    - foldr 11y ago
      Speaking of straw men, please note that I didn't say anything about people starving. By all means, give money to shelters etc. But why not also give money to homeless people? The two are not mutually exclusive. You are repeating the usual mean-spirited argument that we shouldn't give homeless people money because they might spend it on things we don't approve of. But so what? It's their life, not ours. Charity with strings attached isn't charity. I find it a useful exercise to imagine applying the same logic in dealing with comfortably well-off middle class people. If such a person has an alcohol problem, the usual reaction amongst reasonably enlightened people is to try to find that person help. We don't try to cut off all of their sources of income on the grounds that they'll just spend it all on booze. Now, perhaps some of them will spend all of their income on booze, but since we aren't so much in the habit of completely dehumanizing them, we recognize that this is still their choice to make. The bottom line here is that drug and alcohol habits don't cost infinite amounts of money. You can perfectly well spend some of your money on drugs and the rest on food, etc. Unless you have some kind of moral objection to people using drugs, why should you care if a homeless person is spending some of their money that way? It's judgmental and mean to refuse them money because you suspect that they might be going to do this.
marcusgarvey 11y ago
>Good odds they'll use it to buy a drink, which is fine because hell, I need a drink after a long day and I'm not even homeless. Thanks for saying this. The homeless and the poor are human beings and should not be demonized for having the niceties that make anyone's life more joyful. (Kansas, I'm not so sure you're doing it right [1].) I once read about and have since admired a very enlightened approach to this, in the UK: when measuring the average cost of living in addition to things like food and shelter they will also include the money that a household would need to take a one-week vacation. [1] http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/govbeat/wp/2015/04/06/kansas-wants-to-ban-welfare-recipients-from-seeing-movies-going-swimming-on-governments-dime/ http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/govbeat/wp/2015/04/06/ka...
- hueving 11y ago
  Alcoholism doesn't make life more joyful. That's the level of drinking many homeless people do.
  - marcusgarvey 11y ago
    I'm not condoning the encouragement of alcoholism. But I absolutely applaud anyone or any policy that recognizes that poor and homeless people are...people.
- IkmoIkmo 11y ago
  > they will also include the money that a household would need to take a one-week vacation. Pretty standard (Western) Europe welfare model afaik. Here in the Netherlands it's called 'vacation money', and if you don't have a job and can show you're applying for one, you'll get a minimum wage income and vacation money is indeed included in that as a bonus once a year. > the poor are human beings and should not be demonized for having the niceties Absolutely, but you mentioned the UK. I visited the Emmaus centre in Cambridge a few years ago, all the lads there (ex homeless often for more than a decade) told me to never give money because buying alcohol isn't just 'nice', it's a disease that destroys people and there are alternative solutions. They all lived that life. I'm not going to say 'don't give', but if you somehow know for certain it's spent on alcohol, I definitely would say don't give. At least, taking it from ex homeless guys who still struggle with alcoholism and the life they live now at Emmaus. Perhaps it's different in various shitholes in the world where there is nothing to rely on, I can imagine alcohol being a sensible temporary relief, but in cities with capacity for homelessness issues, it's not a good choice. And if you look at Europe for example, you'll find that e.g. the Council of Europe has ruled various times now that not just citizens, but also refugees, all of them, without fail, are to be provided a minimum of shelter, food and clothes. Not saying it's a perfect situation, far from it, and sadly professional homelessness relief still relies way too heavily on charity and voluntarism, but in many cities giving money for alcohol is simple not the best thing to do at best, and harmful at worst.
beachstartup 11y ago
i usually don't give money to homeless people although i will help them if they need something specific. i don't judge them at all because i (we all) have the same vices just in less debilitating incarnations, but at the end of the day... well, i don't hand out cash to non-homeless strangers either.
dghughes 11y ago
This is the modern problem though at least in my region, most people don't carry any cash at all not even coins. Everything is bought using debit cards even credit cards are not as common as debit. Even the parking meters here have stickers with numbers on them and you use an app (Hotspot) to add money to that meters, although you can still use change of course. Elderly people are the only people I know of who use coins and cash.

sosuke 11y ago

Don't give to a single person, give to a food bank, donate money or time to a shelter. If a single person asks you tell them where you give all your donations and they are welcome to go.

DenisM 11y ago
That's right. If your city has visible homeless population, it also has shelters, soup kitchens, churches that help them, etc. Donate to some of those organizations, and only ever hand out the list of all places where to get food/shelter/counseling.

magnifyingglass 11y ago

> "Fuck you, I didn't choose this, but I love it." You'll find that most difficult experiences people endure in life don't make sense on a logical level. You'll also probably find it hard to empathize with. If you've heard of love hate relationships, it's sort of like that. I wasn't homeless, but my father was as a child under 5-10 for some time (I am not exactly sure how long). All I can really say is sometimes it feels like you've been born into a path that is predetermined by fate, you've tried as hard as you can to jump over that wall to get out of that path, and every time you try, someone kicks you out. So you wind up rationalizing your current circumstances, finding value where you can while you have to live it, and generally developing intolerance for people who do not tolerate you. But most of the time, quick snaps of the tongue like this are exactly that. They are a flit of emotion, over a thing that is a tangled web of emotion. These are complicated things. It is sad to me, but most of the time, instead of helping, all I can do is continue trying to survive, so I don't have to live the life my parents did.

IkmoIkmo 11y ago

It's tricky. I've both personally visited homeless shelters where ex-homeless people lived and worked under guidance and coaching, and the general story from them was 'don't give money'. Maybe of them used drugs in the past and said the cliche is completely true. In that case, if someone asks, best politely say no, direct them to places where they can get help (most advanced economies have some capacity in every city), and take the money and donate it to said places or another cause when you get home, pool it in a jar for a once a month or whatever donation if you want. On the other hand, someone close to me in my own family was homeless for quite some time after a wrongful prison conviction. Despite him having enjoyed a great life, big social circle, never addicted, enjoyed higher education and a nice career etc, typical upper-middle class stuff, he struggled on the streets. His prison time carried stigma that he didn't deserve, but couldn't be proven innocent. He stayed on the streets partly because he was afraid to ask for help, to be seen. And partly because he was convicted on a holiday, outside of the country he knew well with a limited network. Someone else in my family took him in, from the streets, gave him some money, a roof to stay under etc. And that's why this person is part of my family now. And I've spoken to numerous ex-homeless who had no addiction, and just didn't have any food or a roof to stay under. Or recently when we partially funded the first month rent for an illegal immigrant. He now has a painting job etc. It's an uncertain existence for him, but he's got an alright life and contributes his share to society and is financially independent. The issue is that cases like this require time to evaluate that you tend not to have passing someone by. In short, I'm similarly conflicted and usually do give. When I have time I tend to have a chat and ask what they need. They'll say 'some change' or whatever and I'll just cheerfully say huh, why? And they'll say for some food or w/e, and I'll just hang out with them for 20min and buy them some food and eat with them. Best case he actually wanted money for food and had some social contact, worst case I fed someone who didn't starve and had a nice chat.

curun1r 11y ago

You could give out gift cards. Almost every grocery store sells them and there are reasonably-healthy fast food options (Subway) that have them as well. It's pretty easy to carry a bunch around in a wallet or purse. Pick whatever denomination you'd normally give in cash. It doesn't guarantee that it won't be traded for cash to buy drugs and alcohol, but it's certainly more of a hassle to do that than to spend it on food.

wcummings 11y ago

>what if that $5 is what ends their life by allowing them to OD or buy unsafe drugs? If they need liquor to stop withdrawals, the money is well spent as far as I'm concerned. Not everyone is in the position to get treatment.

spacemanmatt 11y ago
Check your monocle

ddingus 11y ago

There is one for addiction issues. Maybe it's more generally applicable, but it goes like this: They are an addict, and somehow, each day, they are going to get whatever it is. And they are going to do it, because they have to do it. And for some of these people who are homeless, they are going to do what they do, because they feel they have to do it... In any case, getting that thing, whatever it is, can go the easy way, or the hard way. They could be giving blows in an alley, or pay with some money they got on the streets from kind people, or due to the property crime. We can't make people do anything. Not really. They, themselves have got to resolve to improve, or do things differently, or they simply won't. We can put incentives out there, punishments, and all sorts of things, but in the end, they really do have to resolve to do things differently, or it really won't happen. Every year, a few of these people get there. One day, they see something, experience something that brings that resolution about! And with that comes motivation, and with that motivation comes the doing of things differently. Nobody but them knows when this is, and often they don't even know when this is. And until they get there, it's the easy way, or the hard way. If we look at the cost of this, those costs can be low, average, or high, depending on how often it's the easy way or the hard way. And when they get there, how much potential remains? That too is determined by the easy way and the hard way. So when we give, we are helping to pay down those costs. It's up to them to get there, and when they do, they will appreciate all of us who helped get them there at a much lower cost and risk to themselves as beings, and they will be capable of that much more too. One of us, who gives that dollar, thinking they will just go buy another beer, will be that person who gave the dollar that got them there. They don't buy a beer, instead a razor, clean up and improve from there. We can't make their choices for them, but we can continue to present the option of doing things differently, and that happens one gift, one less hard way at a time. In general, we are helping out. And the help is in the form of harm reduction to preserve their options, health, and buy them time during their struggle. If you think about it, real help, selfless type help, not controlling help that comes with strings and such, is a gift. It's a gift with the best of intent, and in this world intent is what matters. When your intent is to help, you are doing the right thing --and it's the right thing even when it doesn't appear to have done much, or the bad outcome seems your doing. It's not, and it can't be, because we can't make their choices. Only they can. And if we don't give that help, so many more of them won't ever get there at all. It's nothing to most of us. Every so often, it's all that ever did matter to them.