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How would you define "placebo meditation"?

by pvnick 11y ago

sago 11y ago
To verify a method scientifically, one must compare it to something with the same structure but different content. To verify a tablet, one compares it to another tablet without the purported active ingredient, to verify traditional acupressure, you would compare it to pressure applied in arbitrary places, to verify mindfulness meditation, you would have to compare it against things with a meditative form, but without the mindfulness content. I think that hasn't been done. At best investigations are general and barely scientific. It is very dubious to claim that science has demonstrated this is not a quack technique.
- Sacho 11y ago
  I don't know why you're getting downvoted without anyone challenging your argument. I completely agree that the parent comment about being "unverified by science" is bogus(is it? where? citations, links?). However, I wouldn't dismiss this meditation effect outright - after all, even placebo medication can have effects compared to no medication. As long as it doesn't try to wear the trappings of "scientifically tested", it might be a neat "works for me" trick.
  - sago 11y ago
    I agree, in fact, my intuition is that meditation is probably beneficial. And I suspect that might be demonstrable scientifically, though it would be tough, and probably quite vague at best. I was only reacting to the over-hyped claims about this modality. The downvotes I think are because the people who are reading are more likely to be invested in it enough to trawl through the comments, and anything that suggests disbelief, even if not read properly, is automatically anathema.
  - vanderZwan 11y ago
    > (is it? where? citations, links?) I posted an excel sheet full of links, which you apparently didn't bother to check out. And before someone tries to pull an ad-hominem of me being a floaty alternative person: I studied physics and am the son of two doctors of the mainstream I-hate-alternative-medicine bullshit kind. The only reason I know anything about mindfulness is because I have a sister (with a master degree in biology, so natural sciences again), who is currently doing her PhD on mindfulness as a stress reduction method at the University of Amsterdam.
    - Sacho 11y ago
      Sorry - I have no idea how I missed your post(the non-chronological order of HN is a bit confusing to me) - but your first post certainly did make a statement without providing any evidence.
- wes-k 11y ago
  Ruling out placebos for pills is easy. I'm struggling in what a placebo with the "meditative form" looks like. You could tell one group to focus on something unusual but practicing focus is a part of meditation. There are plenty of studies that show benefits in specific tasks (around empathy or focus) and there are others around changes to the brain. Here's one from Harvard that showed 8 weeks of medititatoin corelated with significant changes in the brain: http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2011/01/eight-weeks-to-a-better-brain/ http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2011/01/eight-weeks-to...
- vanderZwan 11y ago
  Your comparison to medicine is flawed, because in that case we ingest an active ingredient that affects our body chemistry. Mindfulness and meditation are both active engagements with the mind - which is like a mental exercise. The mental health benefits are therefore more comparable to the physical health benefits of doing exercise. So to repeat myself: at that point, comparing mindfulness to a "placebo" meditation is like comparing the health benefits of upper body strength training to endurance running. The only "placebo" would be to not do any meditation or mindfulness exercises, just like how the health benefits of exercise are compared to what happens if we do nothing. And that has been extensively researched, with measurable differences in stress levels, and structural changes in the brain.
  - sago 11y ago
    Controls in science are relative to something. If you want to verify mindfulness meditation, you have to compare it against something else, something as similar as possible. I used the phrase 'placebo' informally for the process of controlling against something as similar as possible which lacks the specific content you want to verify. I gave an example of acupressure (which has been done). You gave your own example of how to control against benefits being from meditation rather than the mindfulness modality of meditation.

How would you define "placebo meditation"?

by pvnick 11y ago

How would you define "placebo meditation"?

sago 11y ago

To verify a method scientifically, one must compare it to something with the same structure but different content. To verify a tablet, one compares it to another tablet without the purported active ingredient, to verify traditional acupressure, you would compare it to pressure applied in arbitrary places, to verify mindfulness meditation, you would have to compare it against things with a meditative form, but without the mindfulness content. I think that hasn't been done. At best investigations are general and barely scientific. It is very dubious to claim that science has demonstrated this is not a quack technique.

Sacho 11y ago
I don't know why you're getting downvoted without anyone challenging your argument. I completely agree that the parent comment about being "unverified by science" is bogus(is it? where? citations, links?). However, I wouldn't dismiss this meditation effect outright - after all, even placebo medication can have effects compared to no medication. As long as it doesn't try to wear the trappings of "scientifically tested", it might be a neat "works for me" trick.
- sago 11y ago
  I agree, in fact, my intuition is that meditation is probably beneficial. And I suspect that might be demonstrable scientifically, though it would be tough, and probably quite vague at best. I was only reacting to the over-hyped claims about this modality. The downvotes I think are because the people who are reading are more likely to be invested in it enough to trawl through the comments, and anything that suggests disbelief, even if not read properly, is automatically anathema.
- vanderZwan 11y ago
  > (is it? where? citations, links?) I posted an excel sheet full of links, which you apparently didn't bother to check out. And before someone tries to pull an ad-hominem of me being a floaty alternative person: I studied physics and am the son of two doctors of the mainstream I-hate-alternative-medicine bullshit kind. The only reason I know anything about mindfulness is because I have a sister (with a master degree in biology, so natural sciences again), who is currently doing her PhD on mindfulness as a stress reduction method at the University of Amsterdam.
  - Sacho 11y ago
    Sorry - I have no idea how I missed your post(the non-chronological order of HN is a bit confusing to me) - but your first post certainly did make a statement without providing any evidence.
wes-k 11y ago
Ruling out placebos for pills is easy. I'm struggling in what a placebo with the "meditative form" looks like. You could tell one group to focus on something unusual but practicing focus is a part of meditation. There are plenty of studies that show benefits in specific tasks (around empathy or focus) and there are others around changes to the brain. Here's one from Harvard that showed 8 weeks of medititatoin corelated with significant changes in the brain: http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2011/01/eight-weeks-to-a-better-brain/ http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2011/01/eight-weeks-to...
vanderZwan 11y ago
Your comparison to medicine is flawed, because in that case we ingest an active ingredient that affects our body chemistry. Mindfulness and meditation are both active engagements with the mind - which is like a mental exercise. The mental health benefits are therefore more comparable to the physical health benefits of doing exercise. So to repeat myself: at that point, comparing mindfulness to a "placebo" meditation is like comparing the health benefits of upper body strength training to endurance running. The only "placebo" would be to not do any meditation or mindfulness exercises, just like how the health benefits of exercise are compared to what happens if we do nothing. And that has been extensively researched, with measurable differences in stress levels, and structural changes in the brain.
- sago 11y ago
  Controls in science are relative to something. If you want to verify mindfulness meditation, you have to compare it against something else, something as similar as possible. I used the phrase 'placebo' informally for the process of controlling against something as similar as possible which lacks the specific content you want to verify. I gave an example of acupressure (which has been done). You gave your own example of how to control against benefits being from meditation rather than the mindfulness modality of meditation.