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>I disagree that because depression has these qualities that it cannot be thought of as extreme sadness. I think that human experience and emotions are complex,

by lolo_ 11y ago

>I disagree that because depression has these qualities that it cannot be thought of as extreme sadness. I think that human experience and emotions are complex, and that for various reasons, extremes of unhappiness may result in these symptoms. Is this even meaningful? What you're saying is 'emotions are complex so feeling X might just be a more extreme version of Y even though it sometimes shares no properties with Y whatsoever' - doesn't that mean I can now say any experience is just an extreme version of any other? Schizophrenia is really a lot like extreme happiness! You have any problem with that? >On the contrary, I don't see why we need to put things into special categories in order to respect people's problems and properly judge their seriousness. I didn't say put them in 'special categories' (most of the 'mainstream' attitude I experience is that I'm full of shit and should pull myself together, by the way), I said be careful and don't just speculate as if it were a folly in a public place like this, since you risk coming off like you're downplaying it. You can categorise however you like, but _back it up_ and have a little compassion. This isn't a programming language pissing match. Saying severe depression is a more extreme sadness potentially implies you should do some lovely happy nice things to fix it like you can with milder sadness - much like the usual bullshit I hear about how if only I did more exercise it'd all be fixed and really you can fix it if you just put some effort in! Never mind that the lead PT of the biggest fitness brand in the UK jumped off a cliff, or that many people with seemingly great lives have committed suicide... Saying something is just more of something else, implies that usual fixes apply, just you need to do more. I'm not saying you think any of this, but that you need to tread carefully - these are actually I think (and experience) most people's views anyway, even if they don't want to say it, so both for depressives and those who might interact with them, you're potentially doing harm - is you waxing philosophical of more value than that potential harm?

formulaT 11y ago
In my experience, if there is something that is troubling or upsetting for me, I can tend to engage in distracting activities or thoughts so I don't have to think about it. This seems like a less extreme version of becoming emotionally numb in response to very negative feelings. Saying severe depression is a more extreme sadness potentially implies you should do some lovely happy nice things to fix it like you can with milder sadness - much like the usual bullshit I hear about how if only I did more exercise it'd all be fixed and really you can fix it if you just put some effort in! Never mind that the lead PT of the biggest fitness brand in the UK jumped off a cliff, or that many people with seemingly great lives have committed suicide... I think this gets to the core of our disagreement. You are implying that people without mental illness experience life in a way that is simple and intuitive. If you are unhappy, do more exercise. If you have a "seemingly" good life then you won't want to commit suicide. There is a lot of discussion on introversion on HN, and one interesting post I read was saying how the advice to "put yourself out there" was not good because shallow interactions with other people could be just as unsatisfying a no interactions. The advice was to find ways to connect with people at a deeper level. Similarly "do more exercise" might be simplistic and bad advice for many people, not just the severely depressed. And people with seemingly great lives might commit suicide because they are deeply unhappy or dissatisfied about their lives. Do you honestly think that just because a person has the appearance of a great life, that they must be happy?
- eivarv 11y ago
  In my experience, if there is something that is troubling or upsetting for me, I can tend to engage in distracting activities or thoughts so I don't have to think about it. This seems like a less extreme version of becoming emotionally numb in response to very negative feelings. It might seem like that to you, but the two don't seem that similar to me. Differences include the fact that you may be able to will your way out of your (somewhat healthy) distraction - or think clearly about it, care about it, or register it happening at all - while this is largely not the case regarding emotional numbness (pathology). I think this gets to the core of our disagreement. You are implying that people without mental illness experience life in a way that is simple and intuitive. If you are unhappy, do more exercise. If you have a "seemingly" good life then you won't want to commit suicide. I don't think that's what he's implying at all. Rather, I think he is implying that those that have not had to struggle with depression has another perspective entirely, and thus have a very hard time intuiting what dealing with mental illness is like. That's why you get that kind of simplistic "solutions": those that suggest them usually have no experience with or knowledge of the pathology in question, and are basically thinking of how they would attempt to remedy the situation (unknowingly basing their whole plan on how a healthy mind works). There is a lot of discussion on introversion on HN, and one interesting post I read was saying how the advice to "put yourself out there" was not good because shallow interactions with other people could be just as unsatisfying a no interactions. The advice was to find ways to connect with people at a deeper level. Apropos of introversion; there seems to be a great deal of confusion surrounding the term, particularly in relation to insecurity and social anxiety (as with terms that have their meaning muddied by colloquial misuse.) Similarly "do more exercise" might be simplistic and bad advice for many people, not just the severely depressed. And people with seemingly great lives might commit suicide because they are deeply unhappy or dissatisfied about their lives. Do you honestly think that just because a person has the appearance of a great life, that they must be happy? Again, lolo_ is talking about why "do more exercise" is bad advice in the context of attempting to cure the perceived "sadness" of an individual suffering with depression. Healthy subjects, on the other hand, will generally see a rise in mood (short term). Depressed subjects will subsequently return to their baseline of "shitty" - if they ever experience an effect in mood at all. And regarding people with seemingly great lives committing suicide: Most of these would likely be diagnosed with some sort of psychopathology (although suicide itself might be debatable on a more philosophical level.)
DanBC 11y ago
> much like the usual bullshit I hear about how if only I did more exercise it'd all be fixed You could try pointing them to this, which shows that evidence is unclear whether exercise works or not to treat depression. http://www.cochrane.org/CD004366/DEPRESSN_exercise-for-depression http://www.cochrane.org/CD004366/DEPRESSN_exercise-for-depre... > When only high-quality trials were included, exercise had only a small effect on mood that was not statistically significant.
cpncrunch 11y ago
I'm curious as to whether or not people here have actually experienced severe depression. From my own experience it does seem obvious that depression is extreme sadness. The experience is a more extreme version of what you feel during grief. That doesn't mean that depression is always caused by an obvious trigger such as a death of a loved one, or that it is easy to fix. (In fact, sometimes grief can turn into depression that feeds on itself). IMO most cases of depression are caused by life events. That opinion is based on seeing a number of people close to me suffer from it, and recover. Generally it is not entirely obvious to the person what is causing the depression, but looking closely at their life usually pins down a cause. Generally it is something along the lines of working in a job that you don't like, being in a relationship that isn't working, excessive stress/burnout, or not having a purpose in life, or some combination of these factors.
- DanBC 11y ago
  Your depression may well have felt like extreme sadness or grief. Why do you think your individual experience transfers to all other people with depression? > IMO most cases of depression are caused by life events. This is called "reactive depression". Do you have any real numbers, or are you just going by the people who you know? Some people mask their depression.
  - formulaT 11y ago
    Other people in this thread have claimed, based on their own experience, that severe depression is nothing like sadness. So for me it's useful to see both sides (I'm not discounting either). It seems a bit one sided for you to criticize this post on this ground, and not the others.
    - cpncrunch 11y ago
      Also I find it interesting -- and sad -- that I got a downvote for sharing my experience.
      - DanBC 11y ago

by lolo_ 11y ago

formulaT 11y ago

In my experience, if there is something that is troubling or upsetting for me, I can tend to engage in distracting activities or thoughts so I don't have to think about it. This seems like a less extreme version of becoming emotionally numb in response to very negative feelings. Saying severe depression is a more extreme sadness potentially implies you should do some lovely happy nice things to fix it like you can with milder sadness - much like the usual bullshit I hear about how if only I did more exercise it'd all be fixed and really you can fix it if you just put some effort in! Never mind that the lead PT of the biggest fitness brand in the UK jumped off a cliff, or that many people with seemingly great lives have committed suicide... I think this gets to the core of our disagreement. You are implying that people without mental illness experience life in a way that is simple and intuitive. If you are unhappy, do more exercise. If you have a "seemingly" good life then you won't want to commit suicide. There is a lot of discussion on introversion on HN, and one interesting post I read was saying how the advice to "put yourself out there" was not good because shallow interactions with other people could be just as unsatisfying a no interactions. The advice was to find ways to connect with people at a deeper level. Similarly "do more exercise" might be simplistic and bad advice for many people, not just the severely depressed. And people with seemingly great lives might commit suicide because they are deeply unhappy or dissatisfied about their lives. Do you honestly think that just because a person has the appearance of a great life, that they must be happy?

eivarv 11y ago
In my experience, if there is something that is troubling or upsetting for me, I can tend to engage in distracting activities or thoughts so I don't have to think about it. This seems like a less extreme version of becoming emotionally numb in response to very negative feelings. It might seem like that to you, but the two don't seem that similar to me. Differences include the fact that you may be able to will your way out of your (somewhat healthy) distraction - or think clearly about it, care about it, or register it happening at all - while this is largely not the case regarding emotional numbness (pathology). I think this gets to the core of our disagreement. You are implying that people without mental illness experience life in a way that is simple and intuitive. If you are unhappy, do more exercise. If you have a "seemingly" good life then you won't want to commit suicide. I don't think that's what he's implying at all. Rather, I think he is implying that those that have not had to struggle with depression has another perspective entirely, and thus have a very hard time intuiting what dealing with mental illness is like. That's why you get that kind of simplistic "solutions": those that suggest them usually have no experience with or knowledge of the pathology in question, and are basically thinking of how they would attempt to remedy the situation (unknowingly basing their whole plan on how a healthy mind works). There is a lot of discussion on introversion on HN, and one interesting post I read was saying how the advice to "put yourself out there" was not good because shallow interactions with other people could be just as unsatisfying a no interactions. The advice was to find ways to connect with people at a deeper level. Apropos of introversion; there seems to be a great deal of confusion surrounding the term, particularly in relation to insecurity and social anxiety (as with terms that have their meaning muddied by colloquial misuse.) Similarly "do more exercise" might be simplistic and bad advice for many people, not just the severely depressed. And people with seemingly great lives might commit suicide because they are deeply unhappy or dissatisfied about their lives. Do you honestly think that just because a person has the appearance of a great life, that they must be happy? Again, lolo_ is talking about why "do more exercise" is bad advice in the context of attempting to cure the perceived "sadness" of an individual suffering with depression. Healthy subjects, on the other hand, will generally see a rise in mood (short term). Depressed subjects will subsequently return to their baseline of "shitty" - if they ever experience an effect in mood at all. And regarding people with seemingly great lives committing suicide: Most of these would likely be diagnosed with some sort of psychopathology (although suicide itself might be debatable on a more philosophical level.)

DanBC 11y ago

> much like the usual bullshit I hear about how if only I did more exercise it'd all be fixed You could try pointing them to this, which shows that evidence is unclear whether exercise works or not to treat depression. http://www.cochrane.org/CD004366/DEPRESSN_exercise-for-depression http://www.cochrane.org/CD004366/DEPRESSN_exercise-for-depre... > When only high-quality trials were included, exercise had only a small effect on mood that was not statistically significant.

cpncrunch 11y ago

I'm curious as to whether or not people here have actually experienced severe depression. From my own experience it does seem obvious that depression is extreme sadness. The experience is a more extreme version of what you feel during grief. That doesn't mean that depression is always caused by an obvious trigger such as a death of a loved one, or that it is easy to fix. (In fact, sometimes grief can turn into depression that feeds on itself). IMO most cases of depression are caused by life events. That opinion is based on seeing a number of people close to me suffer from it, and recover. Generally it is not entirely obvious to the person what is causing the depression, but looking closely at their life usually pins down a cause. Generally it is something along the lines of working in a job that you don't like, being in a relationship that isn't working, excessive stress/burnout, or not having a purpose in life, or some combination of these factors.

DanBC 11y ago
Your depression may well have felt like extreme sadness or grief. Why do you think your individual experience transfers to all other people with depression? > IMO most cases of depression are caused by life events. This is called "reactive depression". Do you have any real numbers, or are you just going by the people who you know? Some people mask their depression.
- formulaT 11y ago
  Other people in this thread have claimed, based on their own experience, that severe depression is nothing like sadness. So for me it's useful to see both sides (I'm not discounting either). It seems a bit one sided for you to criticize this post on this ground, and not the others.
  - cpncrunch 11y ago
    Also I find it interesting -- and sad -- that I got a downvote for sharing my experience.
    - DanBC 11y ago