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Having suffered from severe depression I sincerely doubt your analysis. There are times where you feel deeply numb and no sense of sadness whatsoever. You'd hav

by lolo_ 11y ago

Having suffered from severe depression I sincerely doubt your analysis. There are times where you feel deeply numb and no sense of sadness whatsoever. You'd have to bend over backwards to call that an extended version of sadness, where it somehow eliminates its own emotional experience. Also I think you should be very careful down this road, even if you don't intend it, it's very very easy to paint it like it's less serious than it is even if you don't intend to. This is something to look at the _evidence_ for.

formulaT 11y ago
I disagree that because depression has these qualities that it cannot be thought of as extreme sadness. I think that human experience and emotions are complex, and that for various reasons, extremes of unhappiness may result in these symptoms. >Also I think you should be very careful down this road, even if you don't intend it, it's very very easy to paint it like it's less serious than it is even if you don't intend to. This is something to look at the _evidence_ for. On the contrary, I don't see why we need to put things into special categories in order to respect people's problems and properly judge their seriousness. I don't see any logical connection between the views that(1) severe depression is a serious problem, and (2) severe depression is on a spectrum where the milder versions are not distinguishable from being unhappy or "in a rut". [0] http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/statistics/prevalence/major-depression-among-adults.shtml http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/statistics/prevalence/major-d...
- darawk 11y ago
  I think the author of this article's point, and the point that is most likely accurate is that depression is sometimes a manifestation of a physical malady and sometimes not (of course the lines between physiology and psychology are becoming increasingly blurry). The take-away here is not really whether the condition is or is not physical, but rather, what the labeling of it as physical does to the perspective of its sufferers and its effect on their prognosis. Pyschological issues of this nature are a curious form of disease, in that the mental models of their sufferers form a feedback loop with the condition itself. Whether or not depression is physical, thinking that depression is physical has a tangible effect on the condition itself, one that this author and I would argue is sometimes (though not always!) negative. However, it is in the interest of pharmaceutical companies that it be thought of as purely physical, with purely physical treatments. And it can be argued that this mode of treatment, and this mental model in the minds of the sufferers is self-reinforcing. Because it is presented as a physiological ill, depressed persons see it as such, and eschew or don't fully invest themselves in alternative solutions, which make them not work. The sum of all of this is that depression is one of the few diseases that is actually itself shaped by the marketing of its treatments. Which is both interesting and troubling, given the relative inability of the current regulatory framework to cope with this systemic condition.
  - DanBC 11y ago
    See also chronic fatigue, where people reject entirely any psychological help. And if someone's CFS is treated, cured, by a psychological treatment, well, they were faking it. (This has pretty much been said on HN before.)
- lolo_ 11y ago
  >I disagree that because depression has these qualities that it cannot be thought of as extreme sadness. I think that human experience and emotions are complex, and that for various reasons, extremes of unhappiness may result in these symptoms. Is this even meaningful? What you're saying is 'emotions are complex so feeling X might just be a more extreme version of Y even though it sometimes shares no properties with Y whatsoever' - doesn't that mean I can now say any experience is just an extreme version of any other? Schizophrenia is really a lot like extreme happiness! You have any problem with that? >On the contrary, I don't see why we need to put things into special categories in order to respect people's problems and properly judge their seriousness. I didn't say put them in 'special categories' (most of the 'mainstream' attitude I experience is that I'm full of shit and should pull myself together, by the way), I said be careful and don't just speculate as if it were a folly in a public place like this, since you risk coming off like you're downplaying it. You can categorise however you like, but _back it up_ and have a little compassion. This isn't a programming language pissing match. Saying severe depression is a more extreme sadness potentially implies you should do some lovely happy nice things to fix it like you can with milder sadness - much like the usual bullshit I hear about how if only I did more exercise it'd all be fixed and really you can fix it if you just put some effort in! Never mind that the lead PT of the biggest fitness brand in the UK jumped off a cliff, or that many people with seemingly great lives have committed suicide... Saying something is just more of something else, implies that usual fixes apply, just you need to do more. I'm not saying you think any of this, but that you need to tread carefully - these are actually I think (and experience) most people's views anyway, even if they don't want to say it, so both for depressives and those who might interact with them, you're potentially doing harm - is you waxing philosophical of more value than that potential harm?
  - formulaT 11y ago
    In my experience, if there is something that is troubling or upsetting for me, I can tend to engage in distracting activities or thoughts so I don't have to think about it. This seems like a less extreme version of becoming emotionally numb in response to very negative feelings. Saying severe depression is a more extreme sadness potentially implies you should do some lovely happy nice things to fix it like you can with milder sadness - much like the usual bullshit I hear about how if only I did more exercise it'd all be fixed and really you can fix it if you just put some effort in! Never mind that the lead PT of the biggest fitness brand in the UK jumped off a cliff, or that many people with seemingly great lives have committed suicide... I think this gets to the core of our disagreement. You are implying that people without mental illness experience life in a way that is simple and intuitive. If you are unhappy, do more exercise. If you have a "seemingly" good life then you won't want to commit suicide. There is a lot of discussion on introversion on HN, and one interesting post I read was saying how the advice to "put yourself out there" was not good because shallow interactions with other people could be just as unsatisfying a no interactions. The advice was to find ways to connect with people at a deeper level. Similarly "do more exercise" might be simplistic and bad advice for many people, not just the severely depressed. And people with seemingly great lives might commit suicide because they are deeply unhappy or dissatisfied about their lives. Do you honestly think that just because a person has the appearance of a great life, that they must be happy?

by lolo_ 11y ago

formulaT 11y ago

I disagree that because depression has these qualities that it cannot be thought of as extreme sadness. I think that human experience and emotions are complex, and that for various reasons, extremes of unhappiness may result in these symptoms. >Also I think you should be very careful down this road, even if you don't intend it, it's very very easy to paint it like it's less serious than it is even if you don't intend to. This is something to look at the _evidence_ for. On the contrary, I don't see why we need to put things into special categories in order to respect people's problems and properly judge their seriousness. I don't see any logical connection between the views that(1) severe depression is a serious problem, and (2) severe depression is on a spectrum where the milder versions are not distinguishable from being unhappy or "in a rut". [0] http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/statistics/prevalence/major-depression-among-adults.shtml http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/statistics/prevalence/major-d...

darawk 11y ago
I think the author of this article's point, and the point that is most likely accurate is that depression is sometimes a manifestation of a physical malady and sometimes not (of course the lines between physiology and psychology are becoming increasingly blurry). The take-away here is not really whether the condition is or is not physical, but rather, what the labeling of it as physical does to the perspective of its sufferers and its effect on their prognosis. Pyschological issues of this nature are a curious form of disease, in that the mental models of their sufferers form a feedback loop with the condition itself. Whether or not depression is physical, thinking that depression is physical has a tangible effect on the condition itself, one that this author and I would argue is sometimes (though not always!) negative. However, it is in the interest of pharmaceutical companies that it be thought of as purely physical, with purely physical treatments. And it can be argued that this mode of treatment, and this mental model in the minds of the sufferers is self-reinforcing. Because it is presented as a physiological ill, depressed persons see it as such, and eschew or don't fully invest themselves in alternative solutions, which make them not work. The sum of all of this is that depression is one of the few diseases that is actually itself shaped by the marketing of its treatments. Which is both interesting and troubling, given the relative inability of the current regulatory framework to cope with this systemic condition.
- DanBC 11y ago
  See also chronic fatigue, where people reject entirely any psychological help. And if someone's CFS is treated, cured, by a psychological treatment, well, they were faking it. (This has pretty much been said on HN before.)
lolo_ 11y ago
>I disagree that because depression has these qualities that it cannot be thought of as extreme sadness. I think that human experience and emotions are complex, and that for various reasons, extremes of unhappiness may result in these symptoms. Is this even meaningful? What you're saying is 'emotions are complex so feeling X might just be a more extreme version of Y even though it sometimes shares no properties with Y whatsoever' - doesn't that mean I can now say any experience is just an extreme version of any other? Schizophrenia is really a lot like extreme happiness! You have any problem with that? >On the contrary, I don't see why we need to put things into special categories in order to respect people's problems and properly judge their seriousness. I didn't say put them in 'special categories' (most of the 'mainstream' attitude I experience is that I'm full of shit and should pull myself together, by the way), I said be careful and don't just speculate as if it were a folly in a public place like this, since you risk coming off like you're downplaying it. You can categorise however you like, but _back it up_ and have a little compassion. This isn't a programming language pissing match. Saying severe depression is a more extreme sadness potentially implies you should do some lovely happy nice things to fix it like you can with milder sadness - much like the usual bullshit I hear about how if only I did more exercise it'd all be fixed and really you can fix it if you just put some effort in! Never mind that the lead PT of the biggest fitness brand in the UK jumped off a cliff, or that many people with seemingly great lives have committed suicide... Saying something is just more of something else, implies that usual fixes apply, just you need to do more. I'm not saying you think any of this, but that you need to tread carefully - these are actually I think (and experience) most people's views anyway, even if they don't want to say it, so both for depressives and those who might interact with them, you're potentially doing harm - is you waxing philosophical of more value than that potential harm?
- formulaT 11y ago
  In my experience, if there is something that is troubling or upsetting for me, I can tend to engage in distracting activities or thoughts so I don't have to think about it. This seems like a less extreme version of becoming emotionally numb in response to very negative feelings. Saying severe depression is a more extreme sadness potentially implies you should do some lovely happy nice things to fix it like you can with milder sadness - much like the usual bullshit I hear about how if only I did more exercise it'd all be fixed and really you can fix it if you just put some effort in! Never mind that the lead PT of the biggest fitness brand in the UK jumped off a cliff, or that many people with seemingly great lives have committed suicide... I think this gets to the core of our disagreement. You are implying that people without mental illness experience life in a way that is simple and intuitive. If you are unhappy, do more exercise. If you have a "seemingly" good life then you won't want to commit suicide. There is a lot of discussion on introversion on HN, and one interesting post I read was saying how the advice to "put yourself out there" was not good because shallow interactions with other people could be just as unsatisfying a no interactions. The advice was to find ways to connect with people at a deeper level. Similarly "do more exercise" might be simplistic and bad advice for many people, not just the severely depressed. And people with seemingly great lives might commit suicide because they are deeply unhappy or dissatisfied about their lives. Do you honestly think that just because a person has the appearance of a great life, that they must be happy?