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> I see so many job applications that are exactly a laundry list of achievements, and nothing about what the applicant could do for me. There is another side t

> I see so many job applications that are exactly a laundry list of achievements, and nothing about what the applicant could do for me. There is another side to this, which is that many job ads don't provide anything like enough information for candidates to do that. Most job ads tell us what skills are desired, and a tiny bit about the industry the company works in, and even less about the specific project the candidate would be focused on. It's difficult for me to tell you, "I can bring your galambosian robotics framework to the next level by applying the latest Fibonacci refactoring techniques!" if all I know is "we're a leading-edge company working on bringing killer robots to the masses!" Furthermore, the cover letter will in many cases be screened by an HR wonk who isn't qualified to judge any of that. So the approach of a cover letter that points up specific expertise that may apply to the position is often the best a candidate can do. "My work on galambosian robotics frameworks has definite application to the world of killer robots" is at least as much "pointing out past achievements" as "telling what I can do for you", but without a lot more information than companies are willing to give, it's difficult to make it better. The hiring process is profoundly broken.

ColinWright 12y ago
> The hiring process is profoundly broken. That's certainly true, and we agree on that. More, you make good and valid points. Having said that, there is more that candidates can do. They can find out what the company does, for a start. Then if the ad says what skills are required, state clearly that you have the skill and provide evidence. Those two things along will put you ahead of 90% of other applicants. "I work well in groups, but also work well alone." - you and every other applicant will claim that. Provide evidence. Leonardo didn't have a detailed job description to work from, he put in some thought about what his potential employer would want, and then demonstrated that he could provide it. > we're a leading-edge company working on > bringing killer robots to the masses! Then you'll need control systems, real-time software, image analysis, goal-oriented planning systems, etc. Do you have those skills? Say so and provide evidence. You won't know exactly what frameworks they use, but you can demonstrate the ability to move between frameworks taking with you your underlying design and problem solving skills. I agree entirely that the hiring process is broken, but you can get well ahead by being different and relevant. And if your application doesn't get past the HR wonks, is it really somewhere you want to work?
- dropit_sphere 12y ago
  "Provide evidence." For better or for worse, that's what's so frustrating about hiring/interviewing. I pay my taxes. I drive the speed limit. I never cheated in high school or college. I signed up for the Selective Service. When I see trash on the ground, I pick it up. I keep off the grass. Yet when talking to a potential employer, I magically become this shifty-eyed drifter, whose every word is suspect. "Interviewer: But how many years of walnut do you have? Carpenter: Gosh, I really don't know -- was I supposed to be counting the walnut?" (http://www.jasonbock.net/jb/News/Item/7c334037d1a9437d9fa6506e2f35eaac http://www.jasonbock.net/jb/News/Item/7c334037d1a9437d9fa650...) The "carpenter" thought he was just doing work. What he didn't realize was that a career in technology means always preparing for when you're next put on trial. I get it, of course. Programmers are expensive and have a ramp-up time, firing is hard so it pays to be cautious when hiring, etc. But the net effect, the defaulting to the conclusion that an interviewee is lying or stupid, is toxic.
  - ColinWright 12y ago
    So, taking that to its logical conclusion, your application would read: I can do anything you need. That would be it. You don't need to provide evidence, I'm expected to take you at your word. Of course not. Of course you expect to provide evidence, you just might not think of it like that. You might think of it as showing me your github repo, or listing your previous jobs and/or contracts, or listing your credentials and/or qualifications. That's evidence. But I don't want to see all of the things you could list. I want to see the things that support your statements of what you can do, because like it or not, I'm not going to take your word for it if all you do is say: I can do anything you want.
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
- TheOtherHobbes 12y ago
  >They can find out what the company does, for a start. If there's an agency involved, this can be anywhere between somewhat challenging and damn near impossible. "You'll be joining our client who is one of the world's leading suppliers of [meaningless marketing-speak goes here]" Obviously, HN job posts don't have this problem. But for Plain Old Contracting it can be a serious issue at the CV stage.

ColinWright 12y ago

> The hiring process is profoundly broken. That's certainly true, and we agree on that. More, you make good and valid points. Having said that, there is more that candidates can do. They can find out what the company does, for a start. Then if the ad says what skills are required, state clearly that you have the skill and provide evidence. Those two things along will put you ahead of 90% of other applicants. "I work well in groups, but also work well alone." - you and every other applicant will claim that. Provide evidence. Leonardo didn't have a detailed job description to work from, he put in some thought about what his potential employer would want, and then demonstrated that he could provide it. > we're a leading-edge company working on > bringing killer robots to the masses! Then you'll need control systems, real-time software, image analysis, goal-oriented planning systems, etc. Do you have those skills? Say so and provide evidence. You won't know exactly what frameworks they use, but you can demonstrate the ability to move between frameworks taking with you your underlying design and problem solving skills. I agree entirely that the hiring process is broken, but you can get well ahead by being different and relevant. And if your application doesn't get past the HR wonks, is it really somewhere you want to work?

dropit_sphere 12y ago
"Provide evidence." For better or for worse, that's what's so frustrating about hiring/interviewing. I pay my taxes. I drive the speed limit. I never cheated in high school or college. I signed up for the Selective Service. When I see trash on the ground, I pick it up. I keep off the grass. Yet when talking to a potential employer, I magically become this shifty-eyed drifter, whose every word is suspect. "Interviewer: But how many years of walnut do you have? Carpenter: Gosh, I really don't know -- was I supposed to be counting the walnut?" (http://www.jasonbock.net/jb/News/Item/7c334037d1a9437d9fa6506e2f35eaac http://www.jasonbock.net/jb/News/Item/7c334037d1a9437d9fa650...) The "carpenter" thought he was just doing work. What he didn't realize was that a career in technology means always preparing for when you're next put on trial. I get it, of course. Programmers are expensive and have a ramp-up time, firing is hard so it pays to be cautious when hiring, etc. But the net effect, the defaulting to the conclusion that an interviewee is lying or stupid, is toxic.
- ColinWright 12y ago
  So, taking that to its logical conclusion, your application would read: I can do anything you need. That would be it. You don't need to provide evidence, I'm expected to take you at your word. Of course not. Of course you expect to provide evidence, you just might not think of it like that. You might think of it as showing me your github repo, or listing your previous jobs and/or contracts, or listing your credentials and/or qualifications. That's evidence. But I don't want to see all of the things you could list. I want to see the things that support your statements of what you can do, because like it or not, I'm not going to take your word for it if all you do is say: I can do anything you want.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
TheOtherHobbes 12y ago
>They can find out what the company does, for a start. If there's an agency involved, this can be anywhere between somewhat challenging and damn near impossible. "You'll be joining our client who is one of the world's leading suppliers of [meaningless marketing-speak goes here]" Obviously, HN job posts don't have this problem. But for Plain Old Contracting it can be a serious issue at the CV stage.