4 ms·

I posted this on reddit and was surprised that no one had observed the same thing here (like, say, pg calling him out). The arrogance contained in this rant i

by apathy 19y ago

I posted this on reddit and was surprised that no one had observed the same thing here (like, say, pg calling him out). The arrogance contained in this rant is sad. He "almost" got his MS, he "nearly" completed a formal education, and he twice decided he was too good to be a Jr. Sysadmin at Google. What do Junior Sysadmins do at Google? They learn how to work with one of the largest distributed systems on the planet, and they become Senior Sysadmins or Production/SRE engineers. If you don't want to work at Google that's one thing, but unless you've got your own Big Idea (and no, "being homeless" does not count as a Big Idea), maybe it'd be worth the initial indignity.... Burning bridges in public is one thing, but I worry a little that he's burnt a bunch of bridges in front of him, not just behind. And the small satisfaction of a rant like this is not worth it. For perspective -- would you expect to see something like this out of Obie? Ever? Make your own opportunities before you burn your bridges... the time for a victory rant is after you win big, not before.

chaostheory 19y ago
pg called him out? where?
- pius 19y ago
  I think he was lamenting the fact that pg didn't call him out.
  - michaelneale 19y ago
    Why would pg call him out? what does he have to do with zed or rails at all any more then Bhutto's assassination.
pius 19y ago
The arrogance contained in this rant is sad. He "almost" got his MS, he "nearly" completed a formal education, and he twice decided he was too good to be a Jr. Sysadmin at Google. I didn't see his rant as arrogant . . . just pretty blunt. If you actually read his technical work, it's quite clear that Zed is very good at what he does and employs practical applications of computer science in his work. It's no secret that Zed thinks there are too many bullshit "hackers" out there who don't know basic computer science, yet they think they're God because they learned Rails or Django. It looked like he was trying to highlight the irony of (no offense to anyone here) English majors turned script kiddies trying to lecture him on topics in which they are, frankly, out of their depth. Having been in the consulting world at a major firm for a few years before starting my company, I've seen it dozens of times. They'll pay, staff, and bill out non-technical people like they're technical and vice versa. You sometimes find yourself dealing with "superiors" and "peers" that think their "IT experience" of writing Excel macros makes them computer scientists all of a sudden. The water's just too deep for a lot of these people and they'll put their feet in their mouths a thousand times before they learn it. (Before I get flamed -- I applaud non-technical folks who are able to crossover and start their businesses using frameworks and other tools. That's truly awesome. The problem is when these people start thinking that because they learned how to change a spark plug or bolt on a turbocharger, they're suddenly automotive engineers and can design a car engine from scratch just like their buddies who work at Ford. Formally trained engineers != mechanics, no matter what the field. Hell, I remember a few months ago, someone on News.YC had the audacity to declare that Computer Science is irrelevant to web apps. That's the sort of bullshit that goes on in this field. There are people who call themselves hackers and literally have no clue what they're talking about and no reverence for the people who've built the tools that allow them to get a foot in the door.) They learn how to work with one of the largest distributed systems on the planet, and they become Senior Sysadmins or Production/SRE engineers. If you don't want to work at Google that's one thing, but unless you've got your own Big Idea (and no, "being homeless" does not count as a Big Idea), maybe it'd be worth the initial indignity.... Meh. Any technical hiring manager who's researched what Zed's capabilities are would know that he is overqualified for that role. Why exactly should someone with twenty years of experience and Zed's skillset who also just happened to have single-handledly wrote one of the most rock solid webservers around with thousands of production deployments take some shit job just because it's Google? Honestly, they're just another company ... Make your own opportunities before you burn your bridges... the time for a victory rant is after you win big, not before. That's wise advice.
- qaexl 19y ago
  I generally agree with you here. I also think that undergraduate CS degrees today, are diluted. That's not to say I have not met folks who know what they are doing with their CS degree. They are also the ones paying attention in class. For those that don't really know how to program ... they got about as much skill as a non-techie who goes off to try to do their own thing. With regards to the English major. It was very possible that he programmed computer as a kid, tried to get a CS degree, and failing that dropped back to English. I'm not saying that this is what happened to him. I do know of a few folks at the local university it happened to. So far, they have not tried to get a programming job.
  - pius 19y ago
    I agree. Just to clarify, though, the point I was trying to make was not about the importance of degrees but about the importance of learning computer science rather than just, for example, "learning to code Rails" (whatever that means).
    - qaexl 19y ago
      Gotcha. You're right, learning computer science is important to developing software.
  - blader 19y ago
    The "English major" Zed mentioned is a friend and co-worker of mine. Zed and him has had some beef going way back. Kevin is no script kiddy, I can guarantee you that. His 20% time project at Powerset is contributing to Rubinius. I don't know how many people here are hacking on the next generation of Ruby VMs, but I wouldn't call him a script kiddy.
    - qaexl 19y ago
      Didn't say he was a script kiddy. I'm glad that there are people who will stick up for him.
    - pius 19y ago
prakash 19y ago
I think you are confusing sys admins with network engineers.
- apathy 19y ago
  Maybe I'm confusing beggars with choosers.

by apathy 19y ago

chaostheory 19y ago

pg called him out? where?

pius 19y ago
I think he was lamenting the fact that pg didn't call him out.
- michaelneale 19y ago
  Why would pg call him out? what does he have to do with zed or rails at all any more then Bhutto's assassination.

pius 19y ago

The arrogance contained in this rant is sad. He "almost" got his MS, he "nearly" completed a formal education, and he twice decided he was too good to be a Jr. Sysadmin at Google. I didn't see his rant as arrogant . . . just pretty blunt. If you actually read his technical work, it's quite clear that Zed is very good at what he does and employs practical applications of computer science in his work. It's no secret that Zed thinks there are too many bullshit "hackers" out there who don't know basic computer science, yet they think they're God because they learned Rails or Django. It looked like he was trying to highlight the irony of (no offense to anyone here) English majors turned script kiddies trying to lecture him on topics in which they are, frankly, out of their depth. Having been in the consulting world at a major firm for a few years before starting my company, I've seen it dozens of times. They'll pay, staff, and bill out non-technical people like they're technical and vice versa. You sometimes find yourself dealing with "superiors" and "peers" that think their "IT experience" of writing Excel macros makes them computer scientists all of a sudden. The water's just too deep for a lot of these people and they'll put their feet in their mouths a thousand times before they learn it. (Before I get flamed -- I applaud non-technical folks who are able to crossover and start their businesses using frameworks and other tools. That's truly awesome. The problem is when these people start thinking that because they learned how to change a spark plug or bolt on a turbocharger, they're suddenly automotive engineers and can design a car engine from scratch just like their buddies who work at Ford. Formally trained engineers != mechanics, no matter what the field. Hell, I remember a few months ago, someone on News.YC had the audacity to declare that Computer Science is irrelevant to web apps. That's the sort of bullshit that goes on in this field. There are people who call themselves hackers and literally have no clue what they're talking about and no reverence for the people who've built the tools that allow them to get a foot in the door.) They learn how to work with one of the largest distributed systems on the planet, and they become Senior Sysadmins or Production/SRE engineers. If you don't want to work at Google that's one thing, but unless you've got your own Big Idea (and no, "being homeless" does not count as a Big Idea), maybe it'd be worth the initial indignity.... Meh. Any technical hiring manager who's researched what Zed's capabilities are would know that he is overqualified for that role. Why exactly should someone with twenty years of experience and Zed's skillset who also just happened to have single-handledly wrote one of the most rock solid webservers around with thousands of production deployments take some shit job just because it's Google? Honestly, they're just another company ... Make your own opportunities before you burn your bridges... the time for a victory rant is after you win big, not before. That's wise advice.

qaexl 19y ago
I generally agree with you here. I also think that undergraduate CS degrees today, are diluted. That's not to say I have not met folks who know what they are doing with their CS degree. They are also the ones paying attention in class. For those that don't really know how to program ... they got about as much skill as a non-techie who goes off to try to do their own thing. With regards to the English major. It was very possible that he programmed computer as a kid, tried to get a CS degree, and failing that dropped back to English. I'm not saying that this is what happened to him. I do know of a few folks at the local university it happened to. So far, they have not tried to get a programming job.
- pius 19y ago
  I agree. Just to clarify, though, the point I was trying to make was not about the importance of degrees but about the importance of learning computer science rather than just, for example, "learning to code Rails" (whatever that means).
  - qaexl 19y ago
    Gotcha. You're right, learning computer science is important to developing software.
- blader 19y ago
  The "English major" Zed mentioned is a friend and co-worker of mine. Zed and him has had some beef going way back. Kevin is no script kiddy, I can guarantee you that. His 20% time project at Powerset is contributing to Rubinius. I don't know how many people here are hacking on the next generation of Ruby VMs, but I wouldn't call him a script kiddy.
  - qaexl 19y ago
    Didn't say he was a script kiddy. I'm glad that there are people who will stick up for him.
  - pius 19y ago

prakash 19y ago

I think you are confusing sys admins with network engineers.

apathy 19y ago
Maybe I'm confusing beggars with choosers.